SS1 1800TI will not start

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Jim Russell
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SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by Jim Russell » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:48 am

Hi from a warm Perth Australia, I have just had an "interesting weekend...like yeh :). I hope that you are all enjoying yours.

Let me just give you the sequence of events...first thing was an oil change ...no issues (I think) after the change the SS1 started up fine.

Just one more job I thought, I must fix one of the driving lights (not headlights the ones lowest) which was not working. So I pulled off the drivers side suspect light and tested it separately, it worked fine and so I deduced that it must be the earth or live not connecting properly, so I reconnected with new connectors and reinstalled the earth wire etc.

Great I'll just start the car...it does not start....drat!

Must be a wire off...there is one wire off - nowhere near the area that I have been working, anyway it is off the alternator at the top , a black wire, separate from the generator socket connection and it is live all the time. Where does it go??? after umpteen hours crawling over the car I cannot find any broken wire from the other end. Does anybody have any ideas? Is this likely to be my issue? The wiring diagram does not show it.

I have checked one spark plug lead to see if there is a spark to earth on cranking and cannot see anything.

I have since had the electronic unit out as I was wondering if it is the start signal to the ECM but tried troubleshooting at the ECM connector in line with the manual without joy.

The ECM has been reinstalled and the red and green LEDs come on when I am ready to start the car so at least that proves that it has power.

By the way the lights are working fine...so I must have fixed that problem.

I would appreciate any advice that you can give.

It has been hard work working in 32 degrees (C that is), just rubbing it in!! :).

Thanks, Jim



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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by swoakes » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:59 am

Mmmm....

Back to basics. Check for spark at king lead at coil and dizzy then at plugs. Is pump running? Check for fuel by removing spark plug.


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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by scimjim » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:00 am

The black wire is probably an old "suppressor" that has dropped off?

You haven't washed the car while doing this work have you? Most common cause of not starting is water in the airflow meter :-) the AFM wiring plug is also in the general area of the lights?

But if you definitely have no spark (and you definitely haven't done anything apart from the lights) then logical fault finding through the ignition & ECU (fault codes) is the only way ahead.


Jim King

SECURE DRY STORAGE FOR YOUR SCIMITAR

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by Jim Russell » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:54 am

Jim and Steve, Many thanks for your advice.

I have been methodically going through the ECU sensor checks and nothing so far. Tried the automatic ECU troubleshooting, in normal mode both red and green LEDs come on. After cranking it for 2 secs I switch to diagnostic mode and both LEDs light in unison but in some kind of code, however they do not come on separately as per the manual. I checked the power transistor and it appears OK, Continuity one way and a higher resistance the other which is what one would expect. The coil seems OK. So any further ideas would be fantastic.

Cheers, Jim



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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by td99 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:08 pm

There's a relay on the wing under the fusebox that feeds the power transistor. Check that's giving 12V.


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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by Jim Russell » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:57 pm

Thanks Trevor

I have checked the power at the transistor and have 0.5v and 12v at the two terminals to the coil, however there is still no spark from the coil. Is there any way I can verify the coil is OK, for instance resistance of the coil?

Many Thanks, Jim



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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by old bean » Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:04 pm

Have you checked all of the fuses?

You can test the Coil though:

Primary circuit should be 0.8 - 1 ohm - test this via the two spades on the side of the coil, top spade = positive, lower spade = negative.
Secondary circuit should be 7.6 - 11.4k ohm - test this via coil lower spade = negative to HT side of coil = positive.

These readings are for around 20 degree C ambient temperature, they'll vary a bit with higher or lower temperatures but won't be far off the base spec.

Might be worth checking you've got power going to the Distributor, undo the four pin plug just below the coil which feeds the dizzy, with the ignition on there should be 1 x 12v, 2 x 5.0v and a 1 x ground in that plug (ECU side, not dizzy side).



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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by Jim Russell » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:06 pm

Hi Old Bean ( Love the name by the way) :). Many Thanks for the checks which we have done and everything checked out OK, the 5V was about 4.8 V which I guess is OK. As far as we can see at this end it looks like it may be a distributor fault and I wonder if you (or anyone else on the forum) agree or could it be something else. We checked all the fuses in the fuse box and they are OK, so unless there are any "hidden" ones everything checks out. Still no spark though. Does anyone know of any distributor checks that I can do.

Boy this is an interesting exercise.

Cheers, Jim.



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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by sabre1800ti » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:35 pm

Hi, Jim,
Many years ago (1988/89) I had a similar problem on a S12 Silvia, same engine. It was eventully tracked down to a "motion" sensor in the distributor, at that time the sensor could not be purchased seperately so a new distributor was fitted. The ECU gave no error codes because as far as it knew the engine wasn't even turning over. It took the main Nissan dealer a couple of weeks to suss it out. If you can get hold of another distributor try it.


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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by scimjim » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:49 pm

take the dizzy cap off and the rotor arm out - underneath there's a wheel full of holes and an optical pick up unit (motion sensor as Doug says) - pretty sure you should get an 11 code if you're doing the self-diagnostic properly though?


Jim King

SECURE DRY STORAGE FOR YOUR SCIMITAR

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), 1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
CURE THE FAULT - NOT THE SYMPTOMS

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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by old bean » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:19 pm

Faulty optical sensor won't always show as a fault code but can and will throw up other codes, my optical sensor is currently faulty and it only gave me the 'primary ignition' fault code. You could strip the dizzy down and check the disc inside is not caked in oil or dust though.

Pretty sure you can test the sensor by removing the dizzy and HT king lead then rotating the rotor shaft by hand (ignition on, might need to hold dizzy against engine block for extra earth, when you turn the dizzy it should make the injectors fire which you'll hear as a ticking sound.

You can buy the sensors nowadays although I've just bought one and it arrived faulty. :(



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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by Roger Pennington » Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:36 pm

old bean wrote: Pretty sure you can test the sensor by removing the dizzy and HT king lead then rotating the rotor shaft by hand (ignition on, might need to hold dizzy against engine block for extra earth, when you turn the dizzy it should make the injectors fire which you'll hear as a ticking sound.

You can buy the sensors nowadays although I've just bought one and it arrived faulty. :(
I think Craig wrote a piece on testing the dizzy, which should come up in a search.


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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by wacomuk » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:09 pm

one of the main problems with non starting with Nissan Silvias was the coil legs having a bad earth


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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by scimjim » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:21 pm

old bean wrote:Faulty optical sensor won't always show as a fault code but can and will throw up other codes, my optical sensor is currently faulty and it only gave me the 'primary ignition' fault code.
I suppose that makes sense - it would only show an 11 if there was no supply to the optical sensor, otherwise it will show 21 assuming that the sensor has worked but the coil hasn't sparked (which could also be a transistor problem). if there's an intermittent fault in the sensor (dirt in a hole for example), there's no feedback loop for the ECU to work out which part isn't working properly.


Jim King

SECURE DRY STORAGE FOR YOUR SCIMITAR

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), 1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
CURE THE FAULT - NOT THE SYMPTOMS

Jim Russell
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Re: SS1 1800TI will not start

Post by Jim Russell » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:09 pm

Hi All, Thanks for all the advice. We again spent a couple of hours troubleshooting. We checked the Distributor, removing it and ensuring that the optical disc was clean etc...it was spotless. We tried the idea of earthing the dizzy and turning the rotor shaft by hand and the injectors operated so it looks like the dizzy may be OK. I noticed that the manual details two LEDs / optical sensors so is there a chance that one may be faulty, hence giving me no spark although the injectors circuit via the ECU works? I guess the crank position indicator should work if the Injectors are working via the optical disc - Is this correct?

I must admit that I am struggling to understand the fault codes via the LEDs as they flash in unison when in diagnostic mode, rather than red (1st digit) and then green (2nd Digit) as detailed in the manual.

Are there any "hidden fuses" or hard to find earths associated with the ignition circuit?

I was thinking of cranking the engine with the transistor disconnected and measuring the voltage, this would verify that the transistor is conducting at each quadrant of the distributor disc...any ideas on this?

Could it be the ECU? If so I would appreciate your advice on where I could purchase one.

As you can see this is a real strange fault, any other trouble shooting ideas will be also much appreciated.

Cheers, Jim



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