Small Sports Detectives - SST/Sabre Spec Differences

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Small Sports Detectives - SST/Sabre Spec Differences

Post by Mateybass » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:22 am

I've only just found this thread and was intrigued by the tail of woe, hope you get things sorted AJ. Unfortunately I was too late to see the ad pics as the link no longer works... I would be interested in seeing any pics of this car purely for my own interest in all things pointy. At the very least, I'd hope the photos of an historically significant Scimitar may find their way to a suitable sporting reliant site (hint hint :lol: )

My main interest though is in the timelines of SST/Sabre production, especially with regard to SST numbers... I think I'm becoming an SST anorak :shock: With this in mind, some of my ramblings here may already be common knowledge and I'm late to the party, or I could also be way off beam, in which case I'm here to be corrected. :)

BTW I'm half expecting the mods here to split this off into a separate detective thread, which might be an idea as it doesn't completely relate to the original post. 8)

To that end I have an observation to make regarding the photo of the Reliant workshop. (For the purposes of this post I have stored this photo in my scimweb gallery space so that it doesn't eat up Dave Poole's bandwidth and cost him money)

[album]996[/album]

The blue Sabre on the extreme right... what is that boot spoiler? It seems much taller than the ones on the Sabres on the left (Mk2 spoiler?) and definitely not a Mk1 spoiler. It looks like the same type of spoiler as fitted to M866 LOA

reliant-reviver wrote:Jim, I believe the white one to be a Sabre, as I know of at least 1 other "Sabre" which was ordered without the "tarty skirts and petticoats"
That or it could be an SST with a tail spoiler as you suggest.
I'm with you, RR, on the white one being a Sabre, presuming it's under construction in this photo, as this photo must be post August 94 and SST sales and production would be well and truly over by this time. The SST wasn't an option on the April 1994 price list. The rear bumper is clearly a Sabre model bumper since the tail lights are in line with the number plate, though the front bumper would appear to be an SST bumper!
reliant-reviver wrote:Righty, this car M857LOA, the chassis number codes as built August 1990 as an Scimitar SST / Sabre mk1
The paint code 75, only crops up on 4 cars, also notable is that most T body cars have a 90 or 99 paint code, which is Reliant for "paint which was cheap / ordered / going off / what? they actually want for us to paint it this shade of..."

The car was registered 24/05/95, and "declared new at first registration" on the V5.

M866LOA, chassis 2179, the '94 restyled Sabre turbo was registered 18/08/94, and "built" Jun '93. To that end this makes M857 the last Sabre Turbo registered by Reliant. With the T registered Sabre built by GW from ex-Reliant parts the last techincally registered.
Regarding M857LOA originally SST number 25, could it be another SST that didn't get out of the factory before the gates closed on the 1990/91 factory closure? I believe that was the fate that befell our SST no.39 (built 1990 registered Aug 1991, J plate) and I know that number 21 built 1990 escaped onto a H plate as that's my brother's... and no. 38 as owned by Ben Kenobe had black bumpers so I presume it escaped beforehand too (My theory here being that coloured bumpers were introduced when Beans reopened for business) One thought I had to explain this is that as there were more 1.8 engined versions made, there might have been an excess of these over the 1400 versions and therefore a backlog in the factory. Dunno, just speculating... but it'd be interesting to see the chassis numbers versus registration dates for this period to see if there's any correlation.

And one final query... presuming there is only one of these twin headlamp restyled versions of the Sabre, when and why did L94 REL change to M866 LOA? I don't know if this has been discussed previously anywhere or even if the explanation is common knowledge. Judging by the photos of the progress of M866LOA on Dave's website, it seems to me that M866LOA started life as a blue Sabre Mk2 minus back end, reg L94 REL which is a Chelmsford plate, and for whatever reason was chosen as the guinea pig vehicle for these alterations. Was it indeed registered in Essex possibly by Hedingham Car Centre (Reliant dealers where our SST no. 39 was first registered as J14 SST as a demonstrator) or was it just a private plate registered by Reliant denoting a 94 Reliant? It would appear a bit out of character though as they didn't seem to do that sort of thing with other regs. Anyhow, the L reg plate appears on the back of the restyled yellow car nearing completion in the workshop then later photos show it wearing the M reg plate. Would this go some way to explaining the discrepancy in the order of the registration dates between M866 and M857?

Just curious... :D


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Re: Last ever Turbo Scimitar Sabre for sale.......... allege

Post by scimjim » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:58 am

The story continues here: http://www.scimitarweb.co.uk/sgwrs/view ... 20&t=16253 perhaps a helpful mod could merge this thread (if it isn't already - I'm on my mobile!) before the ad disappears into the ether and start a new thread on the last post as it has loads of good questions which many will have answers or opinions on :-)


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Re: Last ever Turbo Scimitar Sabre for sale.......... allege

Post by reliant-reviver » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:06 am

Ian, quick response, but the blue Sabre has the common MK2 spoiler. The restyled Sabre has a different spoiler to this, which is supported solely by the bootlid, with the edges of the bootlid smoothed in, and the spoiler floating above them.
As to the front end of the white car, remember that the SST and Sabre shared the same bumper, just with attached skirts.

One thing I would love to figure out is the correlation of time, spec, and wheels. As I haven't pinned down when the OZ Ruote wheels were switched out in favour of the Melber ones. It wasn't in line with MK2 production, as a fair few of them had the OZ's

OH and send me and email regards reg dates and chassis number....


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Re: Last ever Turbo Scimitar Sabre for sale.......... allege

Post by Ben Kenobe » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:43 am

loads of good questions
And I wish I could answer some of them, the information sources are pretty limited, I half suspect that 857 is the yellow car in the far left hand corner, wish I could prove it or find more pictures from this workshop. I did send a letter to the Heynes residence but haven't had any response at all, the Graham Walker team seemed to know the car quite well though but had none of it's history while in Heynes / Reliant ownership.

I have been trying to find out as much as I can about the cars history but it's Reliant days are proving to be more than difficult. I suspect it was registered when it was to avoid the 'CAT' converter legislation that came in a month or two later. I think also that it was registered with that chassis number to avoid certain 'type approval' testing although it isn't registered as an SST it shows Scimitar Sabre on the V5.

I have done quite a lot to get the car 'back up to scratch but there is still much to do. My biggest concern presently is getting it mechanically 'fixed' then I need to pluck up the courage to tackle the paintwork - pearlescent paint is a pig on a metal car - I don't currently have a suitable workshop to do the work for sure on a plastic one.

SST number 38 is still in my ownership and undergoing 'restoration'. Other than the bumpers being matched to the body and rear lights will re-emerge later next year in 'standard' 1400 form since I now have the yellow rocket but time and money have dried up somewhat and I can't really afford to do both so the SST will likely be on hold until the Sabre is 100%.

As an update the car passed an MOT last month but only just. The emissions are an issue and are borderline, the turbo has an awful lot of play in the spindle so that could be the source of blue smoke if the idle rpm aren't kept up and the idle rpm mess up the emissions (needed to be back at 750 rpm to pass). All the cooling hoses need to be replaced, the radiator also needs to be re-cored but I have a replacement courtesy of Mr Howard, the electrics, brakes and pipework need a thorough overhaul but just haven't the time and now a combination of availability and weather have prevented a concerted attack. The brakes are OK but they aren't good enough for 170bhp+ which is what Graham Walker reckon this car can put to the wheels and that is without an intercooler, in the wet this car is skittish in the extreme - perfect drift car for Phil :wink: - the car can easily get into 3 digits and is still pulling like a train which is pretty scary and has only been done once. I need to get the servo rebuilt, find a better source of vacuum to drive it than a pressurised manifold, and all calipers etc need sorting before I try that again.

The SST front bumpers are completely different unless some of the SST units are different to mine, the SST doesn't have what appear to be duct intakes for brakes on their outer corners, I can do some comparison pics later if the rain stops. My SST front looks more like the bumper on the twin headlight car but without the small round fog / driving lights, that area on my SST is completely flat.

I also copied the pictures from the ad but not the ad itself.


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Re: Last ever Turbo Scimitar Sabre for sale.......... allege

Post by CNHSS1 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:04 pm

R-R was refering tk SST ans Sabre mk1 bumpers being the same excepting the arch flare continuinces, your yellow sabre is a mk2 and has a different bumper with brake cooling ducts (alledgedly...) and inbuilt fog/driving lamps


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Re: Last ever Turbo Scimitar Sabre for sale.......... allege

Post by Mateybass » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:32 am

reliant-reviver wrote:Ian, quick response, but the blue Sabre has the common MK2 spoiler. The restyled Sabre has a different spoiler to this, which is supported solely by the bootlid, with the edges of the bootlid smoothed in, and the spoiler floating above them.
I presume in that case this blue car is known to the register... it must just be the angle of the bootlid in the photo but to me it looked a bit taller than the standard Mk2 spoiler. The restyled spoiler had two struts whereas the Mk2 has one central strut so it would be easy to spot the difference in the wild :)

reliant-reviver wrote: As to the front end of the white car, remember that the SST and Sabre shared the same bumper, just with attached skirts.
Indeed, but there was also a Mk1.5 sabre front bumper which had the skirts moulded in... oddly we've got one on our SST :) I still agree with you that the white one is a skirtless Sabre rather than an SST. Hence my reference to the SST not appearing on 1994 price lists, so there wouldn't be an option for this customer to purchase AS an SST, but would more likely be a custom order for a less flabby Sabre... obviously someone with an artists eye :twisted:

Ben Kenobe wrote:
I have been trying to find out as much as I can about the cars history but it's Reliant days are proving to be more than difficult. I suspect it was registered when it was to avoid the 'CAT' converter legislation that came in a month or two later. I think also that it was registered with that chassis number to avoid certain 'type approval' testing although it isn't registered as an SST it shows Scimitar Sabre on the V5.
BK, I completely missed the thread concerning your purchase of the Heynes Sabre... I've been out of the loop recently... your PM now makes sense :) It wasn't so much your reg date I was querying but that of the restyled one being M866 and registered before your M857.

Now... Regarding the L94 REL plate, I think I may have answered that myself having been trawling internet photos and coming across that plate on three different coloured Mk2 Sabres, Silver, Red and the restyle.... so presume it was in fact a Reliant "press photo" plate... but why put it on the restyled Sabre whilst still unfinished in the factory without doors, windscreen, bonnet, seats and rear lights?? And with reference to the excellent photos on Dave Poole's site documenting the progress of the restyle, what of the blue Sabre that I suspect the yellow restyled one was created from?

Still curious :)


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Re: Last ever Turbo Scimitar Sabre for sale.......... allege

Post by scimjim » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:17 am

Mateybass wrote:
reliant-reviver wrote: As to the front end of the white car, remember that the SST and Sabre shared the same bumper, just with attached skirts.
Indeed, but there was also a Mk1.5 sabre front bumper which had the skirts moulded in... oddly we've got one on our SST :)
The 1.5 bumper is simply a mk2 bumper on a mk1/SST body - several cars have been fitted with them, simply because that's all GW had in stock :D


Mateybass wrote: I still agree with you that the white one is a skirtless Sabre rather than an SST. Hence my reference to the SST not appearing on 1994 price lists, so there wouldn't be an option for this customer to purchase AS an SST, but would more likely be a custom order for a less flabby Sabre... obviously someone with an artists eye :twisted:
There's no evidence to decide either option IMHO, it's just as likely to be an SST with a Sabre bumper as a naked Sabre. There are examples of both - and a full blown factory original Sabre in the middle of SST chassis numbers! Best to use chassis numbers rather than model designation where possible.

Mateybass wrote:Now... Regarding the L94 REL plate, I think I may have answered that myself having been trawling internet photos and coming across that plate on three different coloured Mk2 Sabres, Silver, Red and the restyle.... so presume it was in fact a Reliant "press photo" plate... but why put it on the restyled Sabre whilst still unfinished in the factory without doors, windscreen, bonnet, seats and rear lights??
Yep (I was hoping this thread would have been split off by now) but that plate has been on several press cars - we regularly used to swap uninstalled helicopter tail booms between bays (so that the tail number didn't match the "VIN"), or tape false numbers on new ones to wind up the spotters that were allowed into the workshops to snap away :mrgreen: it may have just been lying on the bench and someone needed to reshape the number plate aperture or they just stuck them on for the photo?


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Re: Miscellaneous SS1/SST/Sabre questions

Post by Roger Pennington » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:44 pm

[Mod hat on]

Mateybass' Miscellaneous Musings, Moved (or Sabre & SST Speculation, Split)

(hopefully with Joy and Jubilation from Jim...)


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Re: Miscellaneous SS1/SST/Sabre questions

Post by scimjim » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:13 pm

joy :hurrah: and jubilation :clap:


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Re: Miscellaneous SS1/SST/Sabre questions

Post by Crouchie_b » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:04 pm

Just to add a little bit to the discussion, mine is no23, on a J reg and is defo a SST.
No tarts skirts, Built in fogs, No 'brake cooling' ducts, no spoiler, 1.8 Nissan turbo.
Then some white van man ran over the front n/s corner so after repairs at Pete Browns Race Emporium it had a new front valance (mould made if anyone ever needs one!), repaired front around headlight aperture, de-badged nose, colour coded bumpers and mr2 spoiler.
It now looks a bit different or will do when finished!
Attachments
image.jpg
Following colour coding & spoiler
image.jpg (298.57 KiB) Viewed 4733 times
image.jpg
As originally purchased
image.jpg (418.93 KiB) Viewed 4733 times


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Re: Last ever Turbo Scimitar Sabre for sale.......... allege

Post by Mateybass » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:52 am

Thanks for splitting this off... I think Small Sports Detectives would possibly be a better title and make it sticky so it can be added to for further group discussion to aid decoding the chaos :)
scimjim wrote:
The 1.5 bumper is simply a mk2 bumper on a mk1/SST body - several cars have been fitted with them, simply because that's all GW had in stock :D
I thought the Mk2 bumper was the one with the fog lights next to the indicators and the "brake duct vents", the Mk1 sabre bumper being a basic SST bumper with bolt on skirt and the Mk1.5 being an all in one mould with the skirt going all the way across the leading edge.
scimjim wrote:
There's no evidence to decide either option IMHO, it's just as likely to be an SST with a Sabre bumper as a naked Sabre. There are examples of both - and a full blown factory original Sabre in the middle of SST chassis numbers! Best to use chassis numbers rather than model designation where possible.
Well, the photo was obviously taken after registration of M866 which puts it at the earliest August 1994. As the SST was no longer an option on price lists at this time, and presuming the white car is being built in this photo, it shouldn't have been ordered by a customer as an SST but could have been ordered as a Sabre without flab as an option. :?

As far as there being a Sabre in the middle of SST chassis numbers... back then they all started off as SST until the skirts and flares were bolted on!! :)

I am intrigued by the G reg Sabre though. How did that happen and where does that fall in the chassis numbering? :shock:


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Re: Miscellaneous SS1/SST/Sabre questions

Post by philhoward » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:26 am

The G Reg Sabre is a prototype. The chassis number gives it away...


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Re: Miscellaneous SS1/SST/Sabre questions

Post by Mateybass » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:41 am

philhoward wrote:The chassis number gives it away...
Well, it would do if we were privy to the chassis numbers :) Though I'm not suggesting they should be made public obviously.


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Re: Miscellaneous SS1/SST/Sabre questions

Post by philhoward » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:20 am

The number doesn't follow the normal VIN standard - and previous ones in the same pattern have bee matched up with the known prototype SS1s.


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Re: Last ever Turbo Scimitar Sabre for sale.......... allege

Post by scimjim » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:04 am

Mateybass wrote:
scimjim wrote:
The 1.5 bumper is simply a mk2 bumper on a mk1/SST body - several cars have been fitted with them, simply because that's all GW had in stock :D
I thought the Mk2 bumper was the one with the fog lights next to the indicators and the "brake duct vents", the Mk1 sabre bumper being a basic SST bumper with bolt on skirt and the Mk1.5 being an all in one mould with the skirt going all the way across the leading edge.
We're both wrong having checked - a mk1.5 has a mk2 front bumper and a mk1 rear bumper but the wing arches are moulded in as per mk2 cars (not mk1 Sabre/SST)

edit - after more investigation, it's apparent that the "mk1.5" was found with either: the front bumper with moulded arches and full width spoiler OR the mk2 front bumper!!!!
Mateybass wrote:
scimjim wrote: There's no evidence to decide either option IMHO, it's just as likely to be an SST with a Sabre bumper as a naked Sabre. There are examples of both - and a full blown factory original Sabre in the middle of SST chassis numbers! Best to use chassis numbers rather than model designation where possible.
Well, the photo was obviously taken after registration of M866 which puts it at the earliest August 1994. As the SST was no longer an option on price lists at this time, and presuming the white car is being built in this photo, it shouldn't have been ordered by a customer as an SST but could have been ordered as a Sabre without flab as an option. :?
there's the flaw in your argument :D
Last edited by scimjim on Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), Sabre/MX5 auto (The Flying Broomstick),
1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
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