SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Have you documented a Scimitar related procedure and would like to share it with others? Pictures are most welcome!
Threads here also contain previous “stickies” from other sections, as a central location for quick reference information.

Moderators: scimjim, philhoward, Lukeyboy46, erikscimitardemon, Roger Pennington

User avatar
Nigel Clark
RSSOC Member
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:57 pm
Location: Market Harborough, Leicestershire
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 45 times

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by Nigel Clark » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:40 am

Hi Dennis,

Thank you for your post mentioning the ratio of cylinder diameters between master and slave - I was having similar thoughts which you've confirmed. The 4-cylinder Defender slave that I fitted has a bore of 25mm. The V8 version of the Defender has a 28mm slave, with identical external dimensions. I'm going to give it a try.


Nigel



User avatar
Nigel Clark
RSSOC Member
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:57 pm
Location: Market Harborough, Leicestershire
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 45 times

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by Nigel Clark » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:35 pm

The V8 Defender slave arrived today and I've just fitted it. The clutch pedal is now lighter with a more progressive bite, so a good result.

The part number for those interested is FTC5071 and I bought mine from eBay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221763128375? ... EBIDX%3AIT

The 4 cylinder Defender has a 22mm diameter slave cylinder and this V8 version has a diameter of 25mm, with identical external dimensions. My basic physics says the bigger slave cylinder requires less fluid pressure to exert the same force on the clutch operating arm, but a full stroke of the clutch pedal with the bigger slave will produce less movement of the slave piston.

This is all good... The smaller 4 cylinder Defender slave made the clutch feel as if a full stroke of the pedal was taking the clutch well past the point of disengaging. The greater movement at the clutch arm with the smaller slave could well be over-compressing the clutch diaphragm spring, potentially damaging the diaphragm over time. There's no sense of over-compressing the clutch diaphragm with the large V8 slave. The clutch now feels exactly as it used to with the original Lockheed cylinders.

Result!


Nigel



User avatar
Dennis Nicholas
RSSOC Member
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:22 pm
Location: Devon
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by Dennis Nicholas » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:05 pm

Nigel
What was the master bore size and part number of the Girling item?

This site gives good info on various measurements and their effects.
http://www.buckeyetriumphs.org/technica ... ations.htm



In order to have a good set of info all in one place can anyone give the full details;_

1. Master cylinder Make, part number, bore size, piston stroke, price, supplier. (part number of maker or of supplier)
2. Slave cylinder make, part number, bore size, piston stroke, price, supplier.
3. flexible connector maker, part number, price, supplier. (Goodridge will probably supply to order a connector with the correct end fittings.)
4. If required a list of fittings including thread sizes to connect flexible to cylinders.

Dennis


Dennis Nicholas(RSSOC)
1980 GTC Trafalgar Blue, 2010 basic Skoda Yeti (petrol), Austin 7s, Rileys.

User avatar
Dennis Nicholas
RSSOC Member
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:22 pm
Location: Devon
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by Dennis Nicholas » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:33 pm

Of possible interest......some time ago I took some clutch system measurements. SE6a with Lockheed 5/8" master/7/8" slave and red plastic connector. None of measurements fantastically accurate because of the wobble factor but near enough

Measured at the tip of the clutch operating leaver:-
Distance moved from pedal fully up to clutch just released = 13.9mm
Then a further 3.6mm to pedal fully down, giving a total 17.5mm movement.

Slave cylinder-piston pushed right back in and rod adjusted - piston movement from pedal fully up to fully down = 0.051" leaving a further 1.3" of piston movement before end of useable cylinder length (useable cylinder length about 3 1/4" with spring and piston taking up the first 1 5/16"
dennis


Dennis Nicholas(RSSOC)
1980 GTC Trafalgar Blue, 2010 basic Skoda Yeti (petrol), Austin 7s, Rileys.

User avatar
Corky
RSSOC Member
Posts: 11135
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:02 am
Location: Macclesfield
Has thanked: 233 times
Been thanked: 202 times

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by Corky » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:36 pm

Master cylinders for LR are 3/4" or 19mm in new pence. A length of -3 aeroquip brake hose with a pair of reusable brake-hose fittings is all you need. I've just made one for my RX8 gearbox conversion 3/8" UNF at one end for the Master and m10 at the other end for the RX8 slave cylinder £20 all in.

Nigel, that's a good result. Well done for giving it a try.


Steve
Current:- SS1 Ti RG sprint car, Honda S2000, VW Touareg 3.0 V6
Prev:- Sabre Ti, 3xSS1 Ti, SS1 16v Turbo Racer, 5XGTC, 2XSE6B, 2XSE5A, 2XV6 Coupe, Sabre 6
Project Threads & YouTube

“It's not the winning, it's the taking apart that counts"

User avatar
Nigel Clark
RSSOC Member
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:57 pm
Location: Market Harborough, Leicestershire
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 45 times

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by Nigel Clark » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:31 am

Sorry for the recent radio silence, I've been away for a short break in the Scim. 500 miles in 4 days to West Wales and the clutch felt great!

Here are the parts needed to convert from the expensive Lockheed hydraulics for the the SE6A clutch, as near a definitive list as I can manage.

Master cylinder
19mm diameter from Land Rover Defender (4 cylinder and V8), part number STC500100, available from Rimmers, or eBay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-De ... 3f31acec72

Slave Cylinder
25mm diameter from Defender V8 (the 4 cylinder models use the smaller 22mm slave), part number FTC5071, available from Rimmers or eBay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bearmach-Land ... 2c6cdf2906


The two cylinders can be bought together as a kit for about £25:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STC500100-FTC ... 337fdef92d


Hose & Fittings
The best hose to use is stainless Dash 4 (more suitable for clutches than the narrower Dash 3). The length is 1.4 metres. Use standard Dash 4 compression fittings with 90degree bends at either end. Master and slave cylinders both have 3/8" threads for the pipe unions. Use suitable adapters either end to connect to the 90degree bends. These unions should be fitted with copper washers to seal to each cylinder. When fitted, the hose will clip to the original support bracket on the back of the inlet manifold.


And that's it. If you use the £25 kit of cylinders and pay an expert to make up a custom hose, the whole job can be done for about £70, less if you make the hose yourself. That's about half the cost of an original master cylinder for the whole conversion!

Hope this helps.


Nigel



User avatar
Corky
RSSOC Member
Posts: 11135
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:02 am
Location: Macclesfield
Has thanked: 233 times
Been thanked: 202 times

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by Corky » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:17 am

Nigel, well done pulling the information together, but I'm going to be pedantic and say it's not correct that dash 4 (-4) is more suitable for clutches than dash 3 (-3). After all some OEM systems use -3 and Goodridge recommend -3 or -4 for clutch hydraulics (it's on their website).

Sticking my neck out here :lol: , but it seems logical to me that if the manufacturer has specified M10 or 3/8" fittings, then 3/16" (-3) hose is intended. And if they specify 7/16" or M12 then 1/4" pipe (-4) hose is intended.

I'll be using -3 on my GTC for its RX8 gearbox transplant. The RX8 slave requires an M10 1 concave male fitting, which seems to be only available in -3 size, and the LR 3/4" master requires a 3/8" UNF, which again I could only find in -3 (Though I'm sure more detailed searching would find very expensive -4 versions).

One of the systems I put together for someone had 3/8" at the master and M12 at the slave (a bit of a mix and match job). I still used -3 hose with 3/8" male fittings at each end, but made up a short 3/16" copper pipe that went from M12 male to 3/8" female. The clutch felt absolutely fine and operated perfectly well.


Steve
Current:- SS1 Ti RG sprint car, Honda S2000, VW Touareg 3.0 V6
Prev:- Sabre Ti, 3xSS1 Ti, SS1 16v Turbo Racer, 5XGTC, 2XSE6B, 2XSE5A, 2XV6 Coupe, Sabre 6
Project Threads & YouTube

“It's not the winning, it's the taking apart that counts"

Harpboy
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:20 pm
Location: Brierley Hill, quite near Aldon Automotive
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by Harpboy » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:23 am

Hi guys,

Just to add to this thread - I bought this pairing of m/c & slave & paid £12.00 for copper pipe & hydraulic pipe with unions so all told cost me £22 for the set plus £12 - £34 for a replacement for the existing set up - works brilliantly so anybody considering doing shouldn't hesitate. Just my opinion FWIW.

This forum saved me a fortune - it was going to cost me £27.00 inc postage just to replace the slave!

Steve


Electrics can be fun......99.99% of the reasons why your electrical bits don't work...IS BAD EARTHS
1979 SE6A MOD

User avatar
Nigel Clark
RSSOC Member
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:57 pm
Location: Market Harborough, Leicestershire
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 45 times

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by Nigel Clark » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:27 pm

Corky wrote:Nigel, well done pulling the information together, but I'm going to be pedantic and say it's not correct that dash 4 (-4) is more suitable for clutches than dash 3 (-3). After all some OEM systems use -3 and Goodridge recommend -3 or -4 for clutch hydraulics (it's on their website).

Sticking my neck out here :lol: , but it seems logical to me that if the manufacturer has specified M10 or 3/8" fittings, then 3/16" (-3) hose is intended. And if they specify 7/16" or M12 then 1/4" pipe (-4) hose is intended.

I'll be using -3 on my GTC for its RX8 gearbox transplant. The RX8 slave requires an M10 1 concave male fitting, which seems to be only available in -3 size, and the LR 3/4" master requires a 3/8" UNF, which again I could only find in -3 (Though I'm sure more detailed searching would find very expensive -4 versions).

One of the systems I put together for someone had 3/8" at the master and M12 at the slave (a bit of a mix and match job). I still used -3 hose with 3/8" male fittings at each end, but made up a short 3/16" copper pipe that went from M12 male to 3/8" female. The clutch felt absolutely fine and operated perfectly well.
Steve, we must agree to differ on hose diameter, and I accept your point of view. I went to Earls Performance Products to have my clutch hose made (they make hoses for fuel, brakes etc for everything from classics to current F1). Their view was that Dash 4 would be best for the clutch, because of the volume of fluid that needs to move every time the clutch pedal is depressed.

Dash 3 would be cheaper of course.


Nigel



User avatar
Corky
RSSOC Member
Posts: 11135
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:02 am
Location: Macclesfield
Has thanked: 233 times
Been thanked: 202 times

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by Corky » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:10 pm

I probably didn't phrase my post very well. It was twenty past five this morning :lol:

My point was that either can be used for clutches, and It will depend on the installation as to which one is best.


Steve
Current:- SS1 Ti RG sprint car, Honda S2000, VW Touareg 3.0 V6
Prev:- Sabre Ti, 3xSS1 Ti, SS1 16v Turbo Racer, 5XGTC, 2XSE6B, 2XSE5A, 2XV6 Coupe, Sabre 6
Project Threads & YouTube

“It's not the winning, it's the taking apart that counts"

User avatar
scimjim
RSSOC Member
Posts: 37689
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:08 pm
Location: Gloucester
Has thanked: 136 times
Been thanked: 965 times

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by scimjim » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:25 pm

Dennis Nicholas wrote:Slave cylinder-piston pushed right back in and rod adjusted - piston movement from pedal fully up to fully down = 0.051" leaving a further 1.3" of piston movement before end of useable cylinder length (useable cylinder length about 3 1/4" with spring and piston taking up the first 1 5/16"
is the slave cylinder throw measurement correct Dennis?


Jim King

SECURE DRY STORAGE FOR YOUR SCIMITAR

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), 1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
CURE THE FAULT - NOT THE SYMPTOMS

MushyP
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 8:11 pm
Has thanked: 4 times

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by MushyP » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:23 pm

I have a 5a with the Lockheed slave and what appears to be a Girling master. The slave is 1" bore and the clutch bites immediately on take off, and I think its actually dragging. I just ordered a Land Rover 7/8" bore slave. Is this going to be the correct slave to fit? I know the original slave was 7/8" bore. I guess a PO fitted the 1" slave at some point.


Gordon
1973 SE5a in the good 'ol US of A

User avatar
DARK STAR
RSSOC Member
Posts: 5894
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:56 pm
Location: Antibes, France
Been thanked: 81 times
Contact:

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by DARK STAR » Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:01 pm

Lockheed slave on an SE5a?


Chris Johnson
RSSOC 1979> Rhubarb SE6a V8 1979-1997 Dark Star Coupé 1989> Scimitar France 2010> Vert Soleil GTC 2014-2018
Scimitar France Website No1 on Google, updated nearly every day

User avatar
ganey
RSSOC Member
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:11 pm
Location: Devon, UK

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by ganey » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:45 pm

My 5a has a Lockheed slave too. My 5a was made in Q4 of 1974



gtcse8
RSSOC Member
Posts: 1913
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:11 am
Location: Steeton, Yorkshire Dales
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 115 times

Re: SE6A Lockheed Clutch Hydraulics

Post by gtcse8 » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:57 pm

Yes Chris, they were ALL Lockheed on the 3rod, Type F OverDrive gearbox.

Reliant cobbled up a Heath Robinson mounting to get it to fit Early boxes, then had a proper Casting made for the very later cars, can provide piccies if required.

Which box have you got on your Coupe as I have a few of the early Girling slave cylinders left?.

Mark


Mark Wilson. See the Beast on youtube under" RELIANT SCIMITAR CONVERSION LOL.,Se5,Se5a, Se6a, Two Se6b`s,1 & 1/2 GTC`s, SST 1800Ti & not a lot of sense

Post Reply

Return to “How To Guides/FAQs”