Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

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b.c.flat hat
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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by b.c.flat hat » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:08 am

How do, all.
I've been amazed at the amount of interest in this miniscule subject!
On and on and on it goes, with contributors using loupes and debating the tiniest of morsal of difference. I'm fed up with it, intend to do nothing about it and will compete next season in the bakery truck, a TRUE road goer.
I'm into competing because I enjoy it, politics is about as far from enjoyment as you can get.

I wish our forum had a facility so that topics displayed a boredom symbol when repetitions occur.

Carry on, chaps, if you must but I'm happy as I am.
Roll on next year, Crusty Snr.



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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by swoakes » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:12 am

philhoward wrote:Vented is an improvement IMHO - assuming we're talking about the GW setup. If it wasn't why would you do it?

Standard is "as factory" IMHO.

Roadgoing is different. My GTE is "roadgoing" although the MSA wouldn't agree according to their definitions. My SS1 turbo (1600 CVH with vented bigger discs) is "roadgoing" - again, the MSA would (probably) disagree. SS1 No.1 is standard. Your Sabre Ti is MSA "roadgoing", but not standard.

This is bringing it back to what the SSSC wants - the only problem being that this means SR's for the championship - as I understand it. That involves a lot of red tape with the MSA, having been someone on the periphery of the "bad old days" when Ben and Craig did the CompSec roles.

I'm not even going to mention the other fun and games Craig had with the MSA as at the time, the Small Sports wouldn't have been classed as a "Production Car" and that means a whole other load of rules - and I think one of them might have been a full cage :w
GW discs should help with brake fade in certain conditions at certain venues as I said before but wont actually improve braking performance IMHO.

"Standard" is as factory; agreed :wink: "Roadgoing is different"; agreed :wink:

Is it difficult to bolt on additional restrictions to our club regs :?:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Corky » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:14 am

I can understand that this clarification goes against some people's view of what should be "legal" in RG class. And it would appear that RG is perhaps too close to MP for some.

However, RG is not an "unmodified class" as there are far more things you can do to make your car get a quicker laptime. You can add a bigger turbo, change the mapping, bore the engine (if it stays in the same capacity class), uprate the exhaust, fit an LSD etc etc.....

I fail to see that fitting bigger brakes gives more of an advantage than fitting an LSD !

When you move up to MP, there are many more things you can do to your car in addition to those mentioned for RG. Stripping out the interior, changing the gearbox, adding an extra 8 valves to you CA, removing weight from other parts of the car, fitting spherical bearings, removing items that prevent it from being roadlegal and getting it log booked. + many more that I can't think of off the top of my head.

IMHO, clarifying that brakes are free makes very little competitive difference whatsoever. Every competitor is free to make whatever changes they like to their car within the rules. It's the same for everyone, so big Scim' drivers want to fit Wilwoods, then fair enough !
To pick up on Mikey's comment, If you fit 1B tyres, increase power or alter the weight then our handicap system makes the required adjustments. You needn't be worried.

If we go back to my original post that restarted this thread a few days ago, I mentioned that other championships have addressed these concerns by introducing parallel classes in RG. These classes use the same capacities as each other, but one is BB and the other is "no mods permitted at all".

As for adding extra rules to our own to outlaw this clarification, I'm sorry but I think that would be nothing more than peevish. We either run to the BB or we don't.

As for the differences in safety requirements. Yes that is a concern where cage V's hoop is concerned (but brakes make no difference to that argument IMHO). I consider that before this revelation you could make a car go pretty bloody quick but you couldn't stop it as well as the power hike demanded. Well now you can.

Edit:- http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_ ... ing(S).pdf
Last edited by Corky on Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by swoakes » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:15 am

b.c.flat hat wrote:How do, all.
I've been amazed at the amount of interest in this miniscule subject!
On and on and on it goes, with contributors using loupes and debating the tiniest of morsal of difference. I'm fed up with it, intend to do nothing about it and will compete next season in the bakery truck, a TRUE road goer.
I'm into competing because I enjoy it, politics is about as far from enjoyment as you can get.

I wish our forum had a facility so that topics displayed a boredom symbol when repetitions occur.

Carry on, chaps, if you must but I'm happy as I am.
Roll on next year, Crusty Snr.
Your entitled to your opinion Brian :wink:

So you wont be shoving some vented a grooved discs on the front of your breadvan then :lol:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Corky » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:17 am

b.c.flat hat wrote:How do, all.

I'm into competing because I enjoy it, politics is about as far from enjoyment as you can get.

Crusty Snr.
Totally agree with that BC :lol:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by philhoward » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:32 am

Steve (O) - if you think they're now legal, fit vented discs.

IF they subsequently get ruled not legal in your chosen class (via the regs or a complaint/Scrutineer) so be it.


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by swoakes » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:44 am

philhoward wrote:Steve (O) - if you think they're now legal, fit vented discs.

IF they subsequently get ruled not legal in your chosen class (via the regs or a complaint/Scrutineer) so be it.
I'll wait until after the drivers meeting I think Phil but its tempting as they are in the garage all shiny and new :wink:

If the SSSC decides to prohibit them fair enough; if a scruit on the day tells me they are not legal I'll show him the email and argue and if someone complains (from within the club) I'll be very disappointed


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by CNHSS1 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:46 am

to clarify, larger diameter or vented but std diameter (GW) ARE a performance advantage, whether thru actual 'leverage' or fade resistance.


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Corky » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:55 am

One thing that should be considered before anyone chooses their upgrade. Fitting the PH conversion is possibly still a grey area, as the vertical links, hubs and hub bearings need to be changed from standard to Chevette.


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by philhoward » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:04 am

swoakes wrote: I'll wait until after the drivers meeting I think Phil but its tempting as they are in the garage all shiny and new :wink:

If the SSSC decides to prohibit them fair enough; if a scruit on the day tells me they are not legal I'll show him the email and argue and if someone complains (from within the club) I'll be very disappointed
This isn't Karting (where the majority of the MSA appeals tribunal time seems to be spent) or F1 :mrgreen:

I'm not sure if there has been a complaint from anyone in the RSSOC Compie stable ever (or not for a very long time) over classes and eligibility but I think that might be due to the gentlemanly nature of those who do compete - on both sides of the coin.


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by turbster » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:07 am

Any chance a mod can lock this thread and throw away the key?? :lol:

And if it's going to be a subject at the drivers meeting, can we have some warning as I think I'll give it a miss :wink:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by CNHSS1 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:31 am

b.c.flat hat wrote:How do, all.
I've been amazed at the amount of interest in this miniscule subject!
On and on and on it goes, with contributors using loupes and debating the tiniest of morsal of difference. I'm fed up with it, intend to do nothing about it and will compete next season in the bakery truck, a TRUE road goer.
I'm into competing because I enjoy it, politics is about as far from enjoyment as you can get.

I wish our forum had a facility so that topics displayed a boredom symbol when repetitions occur.

Carry on, chaps, if you must but I'm happy as I am.
Roll on next year, Crusty Snr.
Fair enough Brian, RG is the class you compete in, so if youre happy, who am I to question it :-)


Racing is life, everything before and after, is just waiting--Steve McQueen
6 time Class Champ, 2006 & 2014 SSSC Champion

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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by swoakes » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:32 am

philhoward wrote:I'm not sure if there has been a complaint from anyone in the RSSOC Compie stable ever (or not for a very long time) over classes and eligibility but I think that might be due to the gentlemanly nature of those who do compete - on both sides of the coin.
And long may it continue Phil. I for one would not fit the GW upgrade without agreement of the club or fellow compies (even if that agreement is with some reluctance :wink: )


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by swoakes » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:34 am

CNHSS1 wrote:to clarify, larger diameter or vented but std diameter (GW) ARE a performance advantage, whether thru actual 'leverage' or fade resistance.
If fade resistance is considered a performance advantage we agree :wink:
Corky wrote:One thing that should be considered before anyone chooses their upgrade. Fitting the PH conversion is possibly still a grey area, as the vertical links, hubs and hub bearings need to be changed from standard to Chevette.
He giveth with one hand and ................. :lol:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Corky » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:50 am

swoakes wrote:
Corky wrote:One thing that should be considered before anyone chooses their upgrade. Fitting the PH conversion is possibly still a grey area, as the vertical links, hubs and hub bearings need to be changed from standard to Chevette.
He giveth with one hand and ................. :lol:
I'd hate you to get caught out on a technicality Steve :lol: :wink:


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