Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by b.c.flat hat » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:16 am

Shadap the lot of yer an' git back int' garage!



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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Corky » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:51 am

Back now, and have taken my beer goggles off :lol:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Corky » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:57 pm

Well I've now had chance to read through the umpteen posts since I posted mine.

I'm a big boy and can handle criticism, and likewise I can handle being wrong :wink: but I made clear the point of my post.
Corky wrote:
As far as I'm aware we run to the MSA Blue Book. But so far nobody has been able to categorically state how it should be interpreted with regard to the question of modifying brakes in RG class. The links I have posted show (I believe) how other championships have interpreted them.

I'm in no way trying to pick an argument with anyone or suggest for one minute that rules should be changed. What does interest me (academically, I must add), is what the current wording of the rules actually means to anyone who wants to take their RG car sprinting.

My post is merely reporting what I've found (by accident initially) and not any attempt at making a rule change.
I was hoping that my post would generate some replies as to whether or not I had understood the linked SRs correctly. Unfortunately all it's served to do is get bogged down with the same old arguments, which is a real shame.

The point of this discussion should not be opinions whether it is right or wrong for brakes to be modified, but IF the regs allow for modifications. If the answer is yes, then the right or wrong debate for the SSSC needs to be had. It would appear other clubs have added SA/SB/SC classes which don't allow any mods, they look to be parallel to the 1A 1B 1C classes.

Don't shoot the messenger :wink:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by CNHSS1 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:12 pm

Corky wrote:
Don't shoot the messenger :wink:

Damn! Its all loaded and ready to aim too


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Corky » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:21 pm

CNHSS1 wrote:
Corky wrote:
Don't shoot the messenger :wink:

Damn! Its all loaded and ready to aim too
:lol:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Nick » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:25 pm

As a non competitor now I will not post an opinion, but 2 points:

Roadgoing does NOT mean standard. Substantial mods are clearly permited within MSa regs. I quite understand why compies wish to keep a car road legal and run is this class

If any competitor wishes to persue any issue of permitted mods I would suggest THEY contact an MSA scrutineer ( say David Bowlas) and get it in writing. At the end of the day it is not the Club who determine this, but the MSa scrutineer on the day.

I am not sure what there is to discuss at the Compies meeting on this subject UNLESS we decided to move away from MSA regs. I for one would consider this daft.


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by MikeyBikey » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:05 pm

Given that this post started the better part of two years ago has anyone recently approached the msa for their direction? - no hidden agenda, just something definitive or in writing might help ?


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by swoakes » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:51 pm

Well I plucked up the courage to contact David Bowlas of the MSA about this issue. My email to him and his reply are below :shock: :D

Mr Bowlas,
I hope you do not mind me contacting you.
Can you please confirm if alteration to the factory fit brake disc and caliper
is permitted in the Roadgoing series production class for sprints and hillclimbs.
The blue book refers to brakes very little but I am aware that these modifications
are common place in other classes even though the book does not specifically permit
them as far as I can see.
I look forward to your thoughts on this matter.
Regards
Steve Oakes

Hi Steve,
Generally speaking brakes may be altered/improved providing they still work effectively on all 4 wheels, and the brake mechanisms fit inside the wheel specified by manufacturer as standard for the car, and that the handbrake still operates and will hold the car whilst parked, any front to rear bias adjustment must not be accessible for adjustment by the driver whilst competing on the course. Safety scrutineers are only interested in efficiently working brakes just as a MOT tester would and in any case 9 times out of 10 we may not be aware that you had made changes, however your fellow competitors in similar cars would notice.

This is where eligibility issues such as brake, suspension, engine and transmission modifications may be restricted when you are in a championship for a specific make and model of car, consulting your championship regulations will usually specify what can or cannot be done.

So modifications are allowed except if banned by a specific car based championship regulation.

Please email me anytime if you have any other queries etc, and just out of interest what car are you intending to compete in as I might have more information.

Best regards

David


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by CNHSS1 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:19 am

well that looks as if they are legal in RG then to me :(

well done for following your belief :) especially as it was pretty much you two against the world :shock:

and finally after 18 pages and nearly 2 years, asking a scrutineer lol

Im sitting here thinking as to what the implications are now for Scimitars in RG and the SSSC in general. We now have no class where a standard except for safety items car can be competitive, and that's a great shame.

Are either you or Steve C still going to push for additional SSSC-only regs to the MSA at the Compies meet by the way?

I cant say I like the decision, but happy to say you were right and I was wrong :)


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by swoakes » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:47 am

Cheers Craig for the reply and I understand what you mean about the gap between RG and MP getting smaller.
CNHSS1 wrote:Are either you or Steve C still going to push for additional SSSC-only regs to the MSA at the Compies meet by the way?
After 18 pages I'm struggling to remember what I have said or suggested TBO :) but I think that was only suggested because we had all "assumed" that altering the brakes was against the blue book. Now that we have David Bowlas's MSA view I don't see that this is necessary at all (on the brake issue anyway) unless I'm missing something :?:

Having only competed for a year it surprises me that this has not been discovered years ago, just how long have brake alterations in RG been legal without those competing being aware of it :?: ; or maybe its just takes two PITA newbies to just ask :lol:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by scimjim » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:54 am

Now that's done, we start on the slippery slope of modifying RG cars until the roll cage is the only real difference between RG & modified.

I await an influx of new competitors that were just waiting for that decision so that they could compete in their cars with GW/PH brakes :roll:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by swoakes » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:57 am

CNHSS1 wrote:
Im sitting here thinking as to what the implications are now for Scimitars in RG and the SSSC in general. We now have no class where a standard except for safety items car can be competitive, and that's a great shame.

Are either you or Steve C still going to push for additional SSSC-only regs to the MSA at the Compies meet by the way?
To contradict my previous reply maybe the SSSC should have their own reg to only permit vented discs in RG as an upgrade and not bigger discs. This would maintain the performance differential between the classes but allow RG car brakes to operate without fade :?:

This might be a good compromise decision :?:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by CNHSS1 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:31 am

I fear that Jims 100% correct. In fact im pretty sure that if I put an 8v head and scimitar seats back in (in place of the lotus seats) on my Sabre, it would now be RG legal :-( I can run the soft List 1B tyres and over 300hp.

Steve O,
when I was Comp Sec I did ask the question of the MSA Tech dept (see one of the first 2 or 3 pages of this thread) and got the opposite answer, hence why I was convinced I was correct now. I also spoke to David B and our current eligibility scrute, Adrian early last year.

Jim, i would suggest that all those who said they were/are on the cusp of competing if only big brakes were allowed, wont appear at all, so no new blood will actually appear. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this now strangles RG even further, certainly as far as a competitive class. But that's further conjecture on my part, we will know this time next year.

As newbies you cant know of the old Compies meetings, and the huge amount of emails, letters and phone calls trying to get a workable set of additional regs that suited 40+years of Scimitars and maintain parity between all models and engine types.

The problem is I don't see that we have a class ladder anymore. RG and ModProd are near identical except for the crucial safety items and trim, and a stock Scimitar can no longer compete. I do hope this doesn't knacker the Clubs Academy idea and reduce the push to attract more owners to come out in RG.


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Coupe Racing » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:55 am

Dave hit the nail on the head when he said allowed subject to the clubs own championship rules ( can't quote as I'm using a phone )

This needs a proper vote and everyone must have a say , be it in person or via other means


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by nickkeyser » Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:51 am

Well done Steve.

Do we need to add a supplementary reg banning the vent disc upgrade in road going now? (Joking!!)

I don't see that this will really change the shape of road going, this hasn't changed the roadgoing regs, just clarified the 'big brake debate'. Hopefully it will brings few more people in, as it means a road going class ss1 car can also be used as a good road car.

Next question, is David's email useable as proof to other scrutineers etc when they have differing opinions...?


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