Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

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Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Corky » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:45 pm

I know I keep getting told "No", but as someone with the tenacity of Mary Whitehouse I can't let it drop......

I'm desperate to know if I can still maintain my car in "Road Going Series Production" and fit the PH Brake upgrade. I've heard that many arguments for and against that I decided to do some independant research outside of this forum.

It has been suggested to me that brakes are free :-

Quote as follows
Roadgoing series production is defined, and that says nothing about Brakes so S10.10 second paragraph applies ( which basically says that with certain provisos, unless otherwise stated modifications are free).
If the event or championship defines "standard production" as a class within roadgoing series which adds extra restrictions on modifications and you wish to enter that class then you will need to obey whatever additional restrictions that the event or championship SRs impose.
As the SSSC don't add anything above the MSA (apart from the roll hoop), does anyone have a valid counter argument, before I get too excited :lol:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by philhoward » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:54 pm

Check the description of "Series Production" first...:

"Series Production Car. A car of which at least 1,000
identical examples have or are being manufactured
within a twelve consecutive month period."


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Coupe Racing » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:56 pm

I would say not in the spirit of entering a road going class car - have you read the RSSOC guide lines


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Corky » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:00 pm

philhoward wrote:Check the description of "Series Production" first...:

"Series Production Car. A car of which at least 1,000
identical examples have or are being manufactured
within a twelve consecutive month period."
The only other Roadgoing I can see is "Road Going Specialist Production Cars", which I think it could qualify for also. I can't find the thread now, but we did have a bit of a discussion about this issue. There's an argument for both cases. The specialist catergory allows spherical bearings too :w


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by scimjim » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:04 pm

at the end of the day it's pretty irrelevant what we think at the moment - it's been said several times already but you need advice from the MSA Scrutineer to back you up in the event of a complaint. The Blue Book is one of the most poorly written policy documents I've ever seen (although it's got better over the years) and it's only ever really clarified by complaints, appeals and rulings.


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Corky » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:07 pm

Coupe' Racing wrote:I would say not in the spirit of entering a road going class car - have you read the RSSOC guide lines
Yes, and I personally believe this is within the spirit of the guide lines. We are talking safety and not any great competitive advantage.


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by scimjim » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:09 pm

not really - it's power to weight, so braking is one of the main areas that an advantage can be gained (along with acceleration and suspension).

You only cooked the brakes at Curbs because they didn't cool down between runs - in a sprint scenario they're perfectly safe IMHO


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Corky » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:16 pm

scimjim wrote:at the end of the day it's pretty irrelevant what we think at the moment - it's been said several times already but you need advice from the MSA Scrutineer to back you up in the event of a complaint. The Blue Book is one of the most poorly written policy documents I've ever seen (although it's got better over the years) and it's only ever really clarified by complaints, appeals and rulings.
I think I'm just going to do it, and see what happens. I'm only doing 4 events this year (at the very most), so I am most certainly not a championship contender. The rest of the time the car will be used on the road, and I do like to be able to stop. Apart from Curbs the other day, I have had one or two close calls and I don't like to have in the back of my mind that the braking isn't perfect. Adequate, marginal and OK aren't standards that I strive for, I like over engineered belt and braces solutions :shock:

I won't get it done by Loton Park on the 9th April, but I shall be weighing up what's on all the other cars in the paddock and asking a lot of questions :lol:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Roger Pennington » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:19 pm

scimitarcars.org.uk wrote: Yes, and I personally believe this is within the spirit of the guide lines. We are talking safety and not any great competitive advantage.
If you're talking about the PH (or any other) "big brake" conversion then there would be a competitive advantage because you're increasing the power of the brakes. The only way that argument might be sustainable I would have thought, is with the GW kit, which maintains standard diam. discs and standard (albeit widened) calipers, so there's no increase in power in a single stop. Even then though you could argue that by extending the bounds of the envelope it was aiding competitivness.


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Coupe Racing » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:30 pm

scimitarcars.org.uk wrote:
Coupe' Racing wrote:I would say not in the spirit of entering a road going class car - have you read the RSSOC guide lines
Yes, and I personally believe this is within the spirit of the guide lines. We are talking safety and not any great competitive advantage.

As a competitor - I respectfully cannot agree with that statement,
If you can brake harder and later - then you will gain a huge advantage.

Why not retain the standard setup in terms of calipers and discs and concentrate on decent pads.

I used to run a standard set up - thought I could be better by going Wilwood and vented brakes - and noticed no lap time differences as in sprinting - you hardly use the brakes :shock:

Agree with other comments ref cooking the brakes - on practice days - you do need to allow the car to cool between runs - and a testement to that is that at one practice a few years ago - I cooked a set of Green Stuff and cracked a non vented disc.
This would not have happened if just sprinting.

Try some pads - and dont run before you can walk :D

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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by CNHSS1 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:48 pm

Steve O

Spotted your research off forum and concluded that a debate would ensue.

My two penneth
The brakes on your car are perfectly safe and effective under the MSA regs for your chosen discipline, is sprints and hills, you will never boil fluid or get pad fade at an event
Testdays are hugely different, more akin to non competitive track days.

To that end your point re safety isn't relevant in afraid.

A few years ago when I was the poor sod running the championship, I went to great lengths to get the 'real' meaning behind the MSAs poor and vague wording. At that time the famous blue book caveat of 'if it doesn't say you can, then you cant' was to be enforced by the scrutineers. The following season I asked for clarification from MSA House and was told std braking components barring fluid and pads, no larger discs and/or venting for Roadgoing. I haven't a blue book to hand, but in 99% sure the wording hasn't changed so unless the advice to scrutineers as to how to interpret and apply the regs has changed, then its as before.

The MSA have a ladder of classes to encompass a greater level mods should you really want to go big brakes.

Not what you want to hear om sure


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by Corky » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:24 pm

My whole argument isn't based on what occurred at Curbs. It's a general feeling that the brakes aren't as good as they could be. This is a well known issue with the Ti, as I have found out.

I haven't said bigger brakes don't give a competitive advantage, I said they wouldn't give any "great" competitive advantage. Of course the later you brake the longer you can travel quicker, I'm not that thick :lol: If I had to carry a time penalty for bigger brakes I'd happily do it, I'm not implying I want to do anything underhand.

However I maintain that better brakes make a safer car, I don't think anyone can argue with that !

Steve/Craig, I certainly don't dismiss what you're saying. You've lived sprinting and I haven't, so I will happily bow to greater knowledge. The "spirit" bit, is a woolly word and I normally only deal in absolutes, but I'm happy to be led onto the right path.

Top Formula One teams do not achieve and maintain their positions by not exploiting every loophole in the rules. The general consensus is that it's the same for everyone, so if you see something that someone else doesn't then you are free to gain the advantage. I don't plan to go sprinting with that mindset, but if I see a way of making my car more driveable, pleasurable and possibly safer, then if I can do it within the rules I will. :w


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by CNHSS1 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:13 pm

Steve
You are mixing the standpoints, safety, regs, spirit of regs, and it could be suggested to suit your argument ;-)

If we purely base the discussion on MSA regs and competing, there's no basis for better 'hardware'in Road going class. Better fluid and friction material are already allowed. If the car passes a DOT Mot, then according to the Governments testing body, the car is perfectly safe.

As for spirit of the regs, that's a term usually banded in my opinion, to sway a ruling, one way or another....
My personal opinion is that there's no such thing as spirit of the regs, just regs. The cars legal or its not, can't be both

Really not trying to put you off, wee on your bonfire etc, but feel have to give a bit of balance to the debate.

If you want better brakes, move to Mod Prod would be my suggestion, but I don't see the change needed on safety grounds fir sprinting, only fast road, track days or circuit racing which is another story.


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by td99 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:24 pm

It's a Reliant problem: they upped engine power but forgot brakes. No way you can drive a standard Ti spiritedly without brake fade and warped discs, eg in country lanes. Can get quite frightening I can tell you! Let alone sprinting etc. Maybe you could use liquid nitrogen cooling for the discs! Sure the regs haven't outlawed that yet. :twisted: :twisted:


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Re: Big Brakes Road Going Series Production

Post by CNHSS1 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:35 pm

Steve
Seen some of the other advice on other forums, and I would be very careful of your next move. I'm away at the mo, will be Tuesday before I Can get my hands on latest blue book, but from what I've seen nowts changed since my tenure as comp sec.
Gotta remember that 90% of the advice offered is from guys in completey different classes, so not that reliable.


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