Bad design !

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Corky
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Bad design !

Post by Corky » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:02 pm

I often curse Reliant for placing fasteners out of reach, or for putting the component I want to get to in as awkward a place as possible. However I think Ford and Fiat have trumped Reliant :roll:

My youngest daughter has one of the new shape Ford KA (Ford's version of the Fiat 500), and with 50,000 miles on the clock and just over five years old it was time for a replacement timing belt. We were expecting a bill IRO of £150-£200 for this job. However, Ford/Fiat in their wisdom placed the engine mount inside the belt, meaning that in order to remove the belt you have to support the engine (from above) and remove the engine mount. Quote from Ford £500 (lot's of special tools needed blah blah blah), quote from local garage £420 :shock:

Luckily I found a youtube video showing the job from start to finish.



So I've spent the whole day fitting £80 worth of parts (belt, tensioner, water pump) whilst following youtube instruction on my iPad.

I do wonder, how many people will be put off by the cost of the job and just risk it. Not everyone has a Dad with engine crane, who's easily talked into playing in the garage... :lol:
Despite the job being a PITA, it was nice to work on car where I wasn't battling rust, oil leaks or GRP rash.

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Last edited by Corky on Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Bad design !

Post by Alan SS1 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:45 pm

Corky wrote:

Despite the job being a PITA, it was nice to work on car where I was battling rust, oil leaks or GRP rash.
surely NOT battling GRP?

anyhoo Ford Mondeo of 80's vintage used same clever idea, so obviously lesson not learnt, especially as timing belt is NOT for life cf the chain drive which would have been OK to mount engine from middle of front. . . .

but think about it this way, means that these will be CHEAP later in life as cost to service car >>> than value of car :-)


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Re: Bad design !

Post by Corky » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:49 pm

Haha, that should've read "wasn't" .......... I've corrected it now.


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Re: Bad design !

Post by Lukeyboy46 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:20 pm

Nearly every modern car has to be done that way now, rarely do you get enough room at the side of the engine without removing the support and bracing the engine.


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Re: Bad design !

Post by richardvernon » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:50 pm

I tend to put a jack under the sump and use a steadying bar across the top. Allows a bit of movement of the block if need be as ,believe it or not, that engine has more space than some engines. I do tend to use the slit cambelt method these days when I can (not brave enough for engine running method though :lol:).
Only thing that did cross my mind is that the video guy was a little heavy on the sealant for the water pump.

Good design for Ford initial assembly and service charges.........

And for another good design look up wet cambelt; cambelts running in (engine?) oil.


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Re: Bad design !

Post by Old and Slow » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:19 pm

Sounds like a perennial problem.... my AC 2 Litre had a duplex chain drive to the overhead cam, the crankshaft sprocket was machined onto the crank just in front of the drive to the clutch at the rear of the engine. At least it was a chain, so lasted a bit longer than a belt.


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Re: Bad design !

Post by gordini5 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:12 pm

Was just weighing up the Haynes manual last night for my Transit Connect, same arrangement with the engine mount. No crane so think I'll pass it to the garage and make sure I'm sitting down when I get the invoice! :(



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Re: Bad design !

Post by reliant-reviver » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Yes, was that way with our old Octavia 1.6 petrol (VW engine), jacked the engine up from below.
Such a fun job I did it twice..... having got the belt on a tooth out first time!

The real kicker was the car was exported less than a year later to be parted out :(


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Re: Bad design !

Post by gordini5 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:27 pm

I note too that Fords interval for my 1.8 Duratorq diesel is 150000miles or 10 years, Haynes recommend reducing that to 62500 miles.

That's a huge difference I could drive another 4 times around the world for that :shock:



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Re: Bad design !

Post by scimjim » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:47 pm

RWD for the win :-)

Have you seen the chunk of alloy on the front of a K series? :mrgreen:


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Re: Bad design !

Post by Corky » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:09 pm

This was my first timing belt on a modern car. I didn't realise that many others were as awkward !

I thought doing a belt on a Ti or a DET was a pain. But now I think they're a doddle !

This was the first time I've had to use a mirror to check timing tension and the timing mark on the flywheel.


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Re: Bad design !

Post by richardvernon » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:33 pm

reliant-reviver wrote: Such a fun job I did it twice..... having got the belt on a tooth out first time!
Done it myself- only with belts rather than chains though. Its why I favour the split belt method as it ensures timing is maintained.

And for those doing their own belts why it is vitally important to turn over the engine at least one full revolution by hand to make sure there will be no piston/valve contact. Although just because it will turn over with no contact doesn't mean the timing is bang on of course...


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Re: Bad design !

Post by Roger Pennington » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:28 am

richardvernon wrote: And for those doing their own belts why it is vitally important to turn over the engine at least one full revolution by hand to make sure there will be no piston/valve contact. Although just because it will turn over with no contact doesn't mean the timing is bang on of course...
Admittedly I only have experience of the CVH, but I thought the main reason for turning the engine over by hand was to even out the tension and "settle" the belt, so that when you actually set the tension, you are starting from a sound basis?


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Re: Bad design !

Post by philhoward » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:16 am

2 reasons for the price of one IMHO


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Re: Bad design !

Post by Corky » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:37 am

Although the split method is a neat trick, I'm not a fan, it just seems like a bodge. You are making the assumption that the current belt is on correctly (they can jump a tooth). Not only that, but I would want to replace the tensioner and the water pump (if driven by the belt), which is a lot more difficult to do with half the belt in place. Shortcuts mess with my OCD :lol: .


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