Front damper length?

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rhss1
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Front damper length?

Post by rhss1 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:03 pm

Some Avo adjustables have come up on a large auction site. They are listed as 13". I'm too far from the car to measure; will they be right for the front of an SS1?

If yes, a guide as to spring rates please, car is to be a nice driver, nothing more exciting.

[later after some more digging]

Apparently originals are 15".

Also http://www.ss1turbo.co.uk/hot_hatch_hunting.htm also suggests spring rates should be slightly less that what is spec'd for original geometry.



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Front damper length?

Post by scimjim » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:49 pm

You’ve already asked this question here.

I can’t see where it recommends softer springs in Craig’s article? Certainly wouldn’t be my recommendation. Standard are around 180 IIRC.


Jim King

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Front damper length?

Post by CNHSS1 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:06 pm

Doesnt say softer springs ;-)


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rhss1
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Front damper length?

Post by rhss1 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:42 pm

I thought this bit in the hot hatch article suggested slightly softer springs for coilovers, but maybe that's just my reading simple english to mean what it says:

"By using 1.9” adj. spring seat coilover front shocks with 8” 1.9” ID springs, you can bin the std. front springs and have a huge range of spring rates available to you. I’ve used this method on my racers and it works a treat. Ride height can be adjusted in seconds (yes really) and simplifies things too. If your going to buy new shocks anyway, why not try this method. The only thing to note though, is that to achieve the same suspension spring rate at the wheel (known as the wheel rate) as a setup with the springs in the original position, you must use a slightly lower poundage spring. As an example, I used 400lb/in springs on a sprinter in the original factory position between the wisbones, but to achieve the same rate when using the inboard coilover design, I needed 350lb/in springs."



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Front damper length?

Post by rhss1 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:44 pm

scimjim wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:49 pm
You’ve already asked this question here.

Yes, I know - no answers there either.



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Front damper length?

Post by scimjim » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:15 pm

rhss1 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:42 pm
I thought this bit in the hot hatch article suggested slightly softer springs for coilovers, but maybe that's just my reading simple english to mean what it says:

"By using 1.9” adj. spring seat coilover front shocks with 8” 1.9” ID springs, you can bin the std. front springs and have a huge range of spring rates available to you. I’ve used this method on my racers and it works a treat. Ride height can be adjusted in seconds (yes really) and simplifies things too. If your going to buy new shocks anyway, why not try this method. The only thing to note though, is that to achieve the same suspension spring rate at the wheel (known as the wheel rate) as a setup with the springs in the original position, you must use a slightly lower poundage spring. As an example, I used 400lb/in springs on a sprinter in the original factory position between the wisbones, but to achieve the same rate when using the inboard coilover design, I needed 350lb/in springs."
This is talking about using coil overs instead of the separate spring/damper setup that it has as standard.


Jim King

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), Sabre/MX5 auto (The Flying Broomstick),
1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
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Front damper length?

Post by scimjim » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:23 pm

rhss1 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:44 pm
scimjim wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:49 pm
You’ve already asked this question here.
Yes, I know - no answers there either.
We don’t start a new thread if there’s no answer inside 4 hours :-)

Front

Open length bush eye to eye is 13.5" standard
Bush ID is 3/8"
Bush width is 1" (25.4mm)

Rear

Open length bush eye to eye is 13.5" standard
Bush ID is 1/2"
Bush width is 1" 5/16" (33.33mm)


Jim King

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), Sabre/MX5 auto (The Flying Broomstick),
1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
CURE THE FAULT - NOT THE SYMPTOMS

rhss1
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Front damper length?

Post by rhss1 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:21 pm

scimjim wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:15 pm
rhss1 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:42 pm
I thought this bit in the hot hatch article suggested slightly softer springs for coilovers, but maybe that's just my reading simple english to mean what it says:

"By using 1.9” adj. spring seat coilover front shocks with 8” 1.9” ID springs, you can bin the std. front springs and have a huge range of spring rates available to you. I’ve used this method on my racers and it works a treat. Ride height can be adjusted in seconds (yes really) and simplifies things too. If your going to buy new shocks anyway, why not try this method. The only thing to note though, is that to achieve the same suspension spring rate at the wheel (known as the wheel rate) as a setup with the springs in the original position, you must use a slightly lower poundage spring. As an example, I used 400lb/in springs on a sprinter in the original factory position between the wisbones, but to achieve the same rate when using the inboard coilover design, I needed 350lb/in springs."
This is talking about using coil overs instead of the separate spring/damper setup that it has as standard.
Perhaps I needed to make my original post a little easier to understand (this part):

"...spring rates should be slightly less that what is spec'd for original geometry."

[hot hatch says above - twice - that 350 coilover is the same wheel rate as 400 "...in the original factory position between the wisbones [sic]"

Anyhow, thanks very much for the numbers. I will measure and double-check (hot hatch says 15", and after receiving two different answers to the question of hub nut size it's possibly another case of what's on my car not being what others think should be there).



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Front damper length?

Post by scimjim » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:47 pm

Apologies, you didn’t say anywhere that you are you planning on changing to inboard springs? If so, are you putting lower poundage springs in the original position too, or will you be modifying the lower balljoint mounting?


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Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
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1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
CURE THE FAULT - NOT THE SYMPTOMS

rhss1
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Front damper length?

Post by rhss1 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:26 pm

Yes, converting to inboard springs was what I was considering. I didn't know you could have coilovers with the springs in the original position on the SS1 - how does that work?

And if so what modification(s) to the lower balljoint is/are needed?



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Front damper length?

Post by scimjim » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

The lower baljoint is simply pressed into the wishbone and retained by the reaction of the spring against the wishbone. If you remove the spring, you risk the balljoint popping out, so weld it in or (better still) fit a removable strap.

Where does it say the dampers are 15” - Phil can amend it.


Jim King

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), Sabre/MX5 auto (The Flying Broomstick),
1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
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Front damper length?

Post by CNHSS1 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:50 am

Is the car going to be used on the road a lot? If so, as per my article (written 2004 btw!) The upper arms need a fair bit of strengthening, over and above the various mods reliant did during production (no way of knowing from your posts how many, if any, of the revisions you have on your top arms).

Personally I tack weld in 3 or 4 places the ballpoint, allowing to cool after each weld so as not to damage the balljoint internally and also add a catch strap between the two sides of the wishbones channel to ensure even if the ball joint came loose, it couldn't work it's way out of the wishbone hole.

Spring rates are dependant on engine weight and usage. Is the car track only? For a pure racer you can run uber stiff, but the front crossmember beam takes more load so ensure the captive nuts are in good order, or it'll work loose

As Jim has mentioned, you can also fit assister springs as coilovers. On my Sabre, I ran 400lb between the wheels with 115lb (iirc) on the damper. Advantage is that you can alter preload for corner weighting and alter ride height. Also reduce load on top arms by a large margin over coil over only. Pics in my project threads ' Batmobile ' and also ' Light Sabre '


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Front damper length?

Post by CNHSS1 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:55 am

As fitted to light sabre 13.5" eye to eye
20180917_075153.jpg
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20180917_075208.jpg
20180917_075208.jpg (190.04 KiB) Viewed 325 times


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Front damper length?

Post by CNHSS1 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:58 am

Also I'm 99% sure the original Monroe's were longer, hence my 15" (I would have measured them back in the day) but as the original monroes were so dreadful, it's rather academic

When buying aftermarket shocks, check they can be used inverted As not all can due to the gas section design. It's important at the front as they run downhill, but essential at the rear as they are fitted unpsodw down to normal theory

HTH
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Front damper length?

Post by philhoward » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:14 am

CNHSS1 wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:50 am
Personally I tack weld in 3 or 4 places the ballpoint, allowing to cool after each weld so as not to damage the balljoint internally and also add a catch strap between the two sides of the wishbones channel to ensure even if the ball joint came loose, it couldn't work it's way out of the wishbone hole.
I think Nick or Raz had one pop out first time out as it wasn't held in properly?


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