Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

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Ben Kenobe
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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by Ben Kenobe » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:12 pm

The headlights come on but they don't lift unless the ignition is on, I also did a nighttime test and R7 isn't involved because the lights are on and stay on during the lift, they too will come on with no ignition.

I'm happy for the 'auxilliary' to remain as fogs though since the lights Reliant installed are designed as fog lamps not driving lamps so the beam pattern etc would be all wrong to use as auxilliary's.

At the risk of being abused I would also warn about the C&R regs regarding positioning, light output and beam position in relation to the headlights, and also the highway code (rule 133) about the use of foglights for anyone planning to make foglights work as auxilliaries - you need to change the lights if you are doing this. The oblong lights fitted to the Sabre are Valeo Units part number 7701039303 and 7701039304 respectively and they are by Valeo's definition fog lights, they were produced for the Renault Clio, they don't offer the correct beam pattern to use as 'running or driving lamps' and they will dazzle other drivers. Now others can discuss the can of worms, I for one won't be doing this i.e. making them work as auxiliaries, not decided yet whether to make them 'flash'.

Right now on the Sabre the ignition is enabling the lift only.


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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by scimjim » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:39 pm

But they are either wired as fog lights (which only come on with dipped beam IIRC) or aux lights (which only come on with main beam) so can't be used as "running/driving" lights without rewiring can they?


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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by Ben Kenobe » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:51 pm

Not without rewiring no they can't but you shouldn't use them as aux lights - at least the Sabre ones the light pattern is definitely 'fog' as in drops very short and is very scattered, above 30mph they are useless anyhow to the driver BUT oi the road is wet etc they can produce more 'reflected glare' which isn't exactly other driver friendly. I always understood that lights below the vehicle's headlight centre line are fog lights although they seem to fit all sorts there now.

I don't appreciate being dazzled or blinded so I won't do it to others. I think to use as 'running light' they 'may' be worthwhile if you could reduce the output as some newer cars do - but technically the ones on the Sabre are still a fog light. There are much better ways to create 'running' lights without using them.


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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by scimjim » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:08 pm

I agree - and don't think many people actually use them as aux lights? I changed the ones on G97 to a modern round type with a much better beam pattern but still rarely used them.


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Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by Roger Pennington » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:48 pm

This discussion is very confusing, as there seem to be two different definitions of "aux lights" being used. My understanding has always been that (as Jim mentioned) aux lights are lights wired so they can only be used in conjunction with main beams, i.e on switching to dip they go out. These are not running lights, and considerations of dazzle and beam pattern are largely irrelevant, (as they are for main beams), as you only use them when there's nobody ahead to be dazzled. Strictly speaking of course, to be actually worth using like that, they need a long range "driving or spot lamp" beam pattern. "Fog lights" can be used with or without dipped headlights, but only in the appropriate conditions. Those two definitions seem to meet the two different ways the lights are normally wired.
"Running lights" are a different animal altogether, and a different :w


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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by Ben Kenobe » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:25 pm

Pretty much you said it Roger, beam patterns are relevant, a fog light is useless as an auxilliary light when you get to speeds higher than you would be able to react for the illumination they provide, fog lights are designed to fill the area below the normal dipped beam to reduce the light glare caused by the 'fog' itself.

If you are running on main beam fog lights aren't going to provide you any real gains especially if you are going fast enough to warrant main beam which are designed to light the road further ahead NOT to be brighter. I agree that to be worthwhile as auxilliary lights then the lights themselves need to be of the appropriate design.

I guess trying to make though is that if you use fog lights as auxilliary lights or wire them to be used as auxilliary lights or even 'running lights' then you are technically committing an offense.


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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by tony.idle » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:36 pm

Any light mounted lower than the C&U limit for headlights can only be used under the same conditions as foglights so what units are actually used in that position isn't relevant. (Running lights are the exception).


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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by Roger Pennington » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:56 pm

tony.idle wrote:Any light mounted lower than the C&U limit for headlights can only be used under the same conditions as foglights so what units are actually used in that position isn't relevant. (Running lights are the exception).
I think I'm right in saying that doesn't apply if it's wired so it can *only* be used with *main beam* headlights? (because then it's only used when there's nobody to dazzle)


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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by tony.idle » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:40 pm

Roger

You are correct. I've just taken a look at the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989. I've always thought of the 500mm minimum height for dipped lights in terms of main/dip units but it applies only to dipped light units. So once main & dip is separated the main unit (and any additional main units) can be mounted almost anywhere. Provided, as you say, they are extinguished when dipped lights are in use.

Something else I spotted that has been discussed on the Forum: the use of more than two dipped beams. This is what the above document has to say on the subject:

PART II Requirements relating to optional dipped-beam headlamps

1. In the case of a vehicle with three or more wheels having a maximum speed exceeding 25 mph first used on or after 1st April 1991, two and not more than two may be fitted and the only requirements prescribed by these Regulations in respect of any which are fitted are:-

(a) those specified in paragraphs 2(c), 4, 7, 10 and 12(a) of Part I, .

(b) that they are designed for a vehicle which is intended to be driven on the right-hand side of the road, .

(c) that they form a matched pair, and .

(d) that their electrical connections are such that not more than one pair of dipped-beam headlamps is capable of being illuminated at a time. .

2. In the case of any other vehicle, any number may be fitted and the only requirements prescribed by these Regulations in respect of any which are fitted are those specified in paragraphs 2(c), 4, 7 and 12(a) of Part I.

I extracted the above from:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989 ... dules/made


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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by Ben Kenobe » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:52 pm

Still doesn't answer why the hell you would want to use lights designed as fog lights in such an application - their range and beam type make it utterly pointless.

Interesting that you can only have 1 pair of dipped beam - didn't know that one - as I recall my old Mk3 Cortina all 4 headlights would be illuminated on main beam but only two on dip.

Many with Scims will simply use the 'my car is too old for that to apply' clause anyhow ...


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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by scimjim » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:58 pm

You can HAVE 2 pairs of dipped beam (one obligatory pair, one optional pair) - but only one pair can be illuminated at any time?


Jim King

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
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1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by tony.idle » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:03 pm

According to that section I copied above you can have as many as you like as long as the car is pre-April '91. Jim - I read it that the centre section is the exception to post-April '91. Ben - I agree with you about the fogs. I'd be tempted to use the position for lights that appear to be fogs but are only used to 'flash' when the headlights are down and have no other purpose.


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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by Roger Pennington » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:17 pm

Ben Kenobe wrote:Still doesn't answer why the hell you would want to use lights designed as fog lights in such an application - their range and beam type make it utterly pointless.
Short answer to that is - "you wouldn't" - if you were going to use the additional lights as above, supplementing the mains, then to do the job properly you'd use lights with a "driving" or "spot" lens pattern. (the important word there of course, being "properly", which may be different from "as manufactured".......)


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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by Ben Kenobe » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:18 pm

Apologies to Mateybass for taking the lid off this can - but if people are considering playing with the wiring I think that they need to be 'aware' of any potential 'consequences'.


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Re: Removing Dim Dip on a small sports the clean way

Post by scimjim » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:24 pm

You can just about see the aux lights I fitted to G97:

Image


Jim King

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), Sabre/MX5 auto (The Flying Broomstick),
1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
CURE THE FAULT - NOT THE SYMPTOMS

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