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Post by Rust hater » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:26 pm

Hi, Like many I have long admired, or should I say Ogled at these cars, specifically the GTE. Expecting to semi retire next Spring an aim is to downsize my fleet of classics once I have a little fettling time, retaining just my 1959 S2 Landy.

First thought had been to buy a GTE as my modern daily runner (its all relative) but then I felt I'd had enough of chassis rust so researched the fibreglass monocoque options, concentrating on Mini Marcos & Midas family … which remains an option but I am 6ft & 63, still fairly fit but it seems a long way down to get into a Marcos! As a result, having learned of the availability of galvanised chassis and hearing that the others are reasonably tough … and as I'd rather like air con which is tricky to fit in a classic mini but really close to impossible sensibly in a Marcos … well I'm back again!

My biggest grumble about a GTE as a daily runner is the fuel bills. Yes its economical for the power …. but it is not economical. I have a few questions:

LPG. Some have been converted but all I have found on Google is one with a donut 'spare wheel' type tank under the boot floor, probably with a cut down petrol tank. I had a V8 Merc with one of those, not enough capacity especially as my nearest LPG outlet is not on any regular route and is a 24 mile round trip. Does anyone have experience of other tank locations? Any photos?

Other engines: Most swap out only for more power. OK the Middlebridge style Scorpio is a bit more economical than the Essex/Cologne and with even more power, but not a lot more economical. No, I don't want a diesel either. Any experience of a half decent but more economical engine?

I happen to rather like the Alfa V6 eg GTV 2500. Has anyone had a go at fitting one complete with the rear gearbox? Is it a major chassis mod?

Out of interest looking at photos on this website http://sporting-reliants.com/ModifiedMotors.htm I see that many have either modified the engine brace to go over a longer engine or seem to have thrown it away … which seems unlikely. Is there a supplier out there with off the shelf front suspension/engine mount frames to allow for slightly longer engines?

From that website it seems that quite a few do modify their GTEs but few seem to come up. :cry:



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Post by scimjim » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:43 am

Welcome :D

The problem with the LPG tank is where to put it in a GTE. Normally it takes the place of the standard tank, leaving very little space for petrol. I have seen one with a donut in place of the spare wheel? The GTC is easier as there’s an area under the rear deck (behind the rear seats) that you can hide a large tank - of course you can’t drop the seats and carry a stepladder any more :D

The obvious engine choice for economy and power is the V6 omega - 4 or 5 done/in progress on here. There’s no off the shelf alternative cross-brace but the Omega fits far enough back to use the original.

There’s one Alfa V6 that I know of but it uses a conventional gearbox.


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Post by Martin Rowe » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:50 am

Easily get 100l LPG tank in boot area, there are loads of different sizes / capacities. Only problem would be suitable mountings, they would have to be into the chassis. Other than that, corretly fitted, there would be no problems, other than loss of boot space.



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Post by scimjim » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:25 am

Yes, I should have said the problem is where to put it in a GTE, without ruining the carrying capacity and looking terrible :D


Jim King

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), Sabre/MX5 auto (The Flying Broomstick),
1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
CURE THE FAULT - NOT THE SYMPTOMS

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Post by ScimmyMike » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:44 am

scimjim wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:25 am
Yes, I should have said the problem is where to put it in a GTE, without ruining the carrying capacity and looking terrible :D
Quite agree, the whole point of the GTE design is the hatch and drop down rear seat ability, my 6b had a underfloor cylindrical tank of around 75 litres (60 litre effective capacity) and the installing owner had put a specially made petrol tank in behind the LPG tank which held around 55 litres if I recall, problem was that due to the relatively inefficient manner in which the gas is delivered I only managed 16 mpg round town compared to 25 on petrol, which effectively gave additional MPG of 7 LPG to petrol taking into account the LPG price at roughly half the petrol one, I also found the car far less enjoyable to drive on LPG to the extent I eventually took it out having become tired of the limited range of about 200 miles before LPG required a refill, that was my car and my opinion of course, yours may well turn out differently, any others with LPG setups let's hear your experiences please.


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Post by Rust hater » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:13 am

Another thought with LPG is that it is not as efficient via a carb set up, but the modern multi point LPG set up on an EFI engine is supposed to be far better. So perhaps not the best idea to fit it to a standard engine. And perhaps the compromises are too much for the cost savings.

V6 Omega? Any comments re its economy then, better than the Middlebridge Scorpio route? Does it take an OK gearbox as I know that a run of Vauxhall saloons (Omega I think) had pretty awful gearboxes as my son in law found out to his cost. I briefly researched the Ford & Saab V4 (sorry!) but it is listed as having very similar economy to the original Ford V6 engines ... remarkable!

Am I right in thinking that if a longer engine is fitted (such as say a 5 cylinder Volvo 850 that I think someone put in) then apart from front cross brace issues the spare wheel has to be relocated? If so that seems a shame.



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Post by ScimmyMike » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:30 am

There are cars with the Jaguar V6 engine fitted, seems a pretty good option and of course sits the correct way round in the original car unlike the Mundano equivalent, there's a chap over on the club's Facebook with a 4 pot SAAB turbo engine fitted and Darryl on here is in the process of slotting similar into his se4/5 hybrid track car.

I'd guess that any engine fuel via ECU controlled fuel injection will prove more economical than the old carb fed Essex lump but don't forget to take into consideration the costs involved in changing engines, how much fuel would that actually buy you, no point spending hundreds on a conversion to save a relative few quid at the pumps


SE4c rebuilding. SE5a similar it seems!
SAAB C900 2 door
Scimitar SE4 SE4c SE5 SE6b Austin A35

High Peak Noggin Secretary & general dogsbody

www.high peak noggin

If you can see the tree before you hit it that's understeer
if you only feel the tree as you hit it that's oversteer

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Post by rebel alliance » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:44 am

How many miles a week do you do with your daily drivers ?



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Post by philhoward » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:53 am

I got approaching 40mpg with an Omega engine - when I wasn’t enjoying the >200bhp from it. Still achieved >25mpg towing the caravan too. Gearbox seemed fine to me?

Biggest problem with a longer engine is you run into the crossmember tube ahead of the crank pulley which means mounting the engine further back - if the gearbox allows it.


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Post by willholderogri » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:11 pm

Rust hater wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:26 pm
Hi, Like many I have long admired, or should I say Ogled at these cars, specifically the GTE. Expecting to semi retire next Spring an aim is to downsize my fleet of classics once I have a little fettling time, retaining just my 1959 S2 Landy.

First thought had been to buy a GTE as my modern daily runner (its all relative) but then I felt I'd had enough of chassis rust so researched the fibreglass monocoque options, concentrating on Mini Marcos & Midas family … which remains an option but I am 6ft & 63, still fairly fit but it seems a long way down to get into a Marcos! As a result, having learned of the availability of galvanised chassis and hearing that the others are reasonably tough … and as I'd rather like air con which is tricky to fit in a classic mini but really close to impossible sensibly in a Marcos … well I'm back again!

My biggest grumble about a GTE as a daily runner is the fuel bills. Yes its economical for the power …. but it is not economical. I have a few questions:

LPG. Some have been converted but all I have found on Google is one with a donut 'spare wheel' type tank under the boot floor, probably with a cut down petrol tank. I had a V8 Merc with one of those, not enough capacity especially as my nearest LPG outlet is not on any regular route and is a 24 mile round trip. Does anyone have experience of other tank locations? Any photos?

Other engines: Most swap out only for more power. OK the Middlebridge style Scorpio is a bit more economical than the Essex/Cologne and with even more power, but not a lot more economical. No, I don't want a diesel either. Any experience of a half decent but more economical engine?

I happen to rather like the Alfa V6 eg GTV 2500. Has anyone had a go at fitting one complete with the rear gearbox? Is it a major chassis mod?

Out of interest looking at photos on this website http://sporting-reliants.com/ModifiedMotors.htm I see that many have either modified the engine brace to go over a longer engine or seem to have thrown it away … which seems unlikely. Is there a supplier out there with off the shelf front suspension/engine mount frames to allow for slightly longer engines?

From that website it seems that quite a few do modify their GTEs but few seem to come up. :cry:
mine is cylindrical and under the car 40 litres LPG and behind it a cut down petrol tank 4 gallons or aprox 20 litres (this all fits in the original space and does not project underneath in view) I have photos however it was in a classic car magazine a few years ago so I will look it up when I am at home next.


1962 mini, bedford CA , KR200. morris 1000, mini pickup.several escorts,ford grandad.ford cortina X2 ,astra, SE5A x 2 ,ford focus.

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Post by Rev Light » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:01 pm

You have to put a lot of fuel through a car to pay for lpg/engine change. Never mind the hassle. What kind of mileage are you thinking of doing? And where are you doing it. I would be more concerned about whether I was going manual or automatic. An MG BGT returns similar mpg to a Scimitar. I.e. high 20's?

Steve


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Post by Rust hater » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:33 pm

rebel alliance wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:44 am
How many miles a week do you do with your daily drivers ?
Not a lot is the truthful answer. In my working week 100 miles. Weekends another 20. Then a trip to France once a year and within UK perhaps another 2500 a year. Once semi retired I doubt much different. I'd be very happy to get almost 40MPG from an Omega engine in daily use. I hear that the standard engine will just about do that but only manual overdrive and only on a run.



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Post by rebel alliance » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:14 pm

Here's my opinion, your very low mileage to me makes swapping the engine and gearbox a lot of work to save not all that much money on running costs..You said you have long admired the scimitar gte, so have i .The essex is the heart of these cars and one of the reasons i like them.Try one out you may decide you like it better with it in



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Post by scimjim » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:30 pm

Rev Light wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:01 pm
You have to put a lot of fuel through a car to pay for lpg/engine change. Never mind the hassle.
Check my maths please:

8000 miles a year at 25mpg is around £1900 in fuel at todays £1.30 a litre.

8000 miles a year at 40mpg (roughly the LPG equivelant on an Essex? Or an omega V6) is around £1200 pa.

Wouldn’t take that long to be worth it?


Jim King

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), Sabre/MX5 auto (The Flying Broomstick),
1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
CURE THE FAULT - NOT THE SYMPTOMS

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Post by philhoward » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:31 pm

I doubt I’d have done my conversion if the original engine hadn’t been seized..but I enjoyed the process. Conversion cost was probably similar to rebuilding the Essex to standard spec.


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