Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by scimjim » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:40 am

I totally agree Erik,

to quote:

Experts found the calliper on the offside front brake was larger than the one on the nearside front brake, which caused the car to slew when the brakes were applied.

The brake pedals were worn so badly that the brake pedal had to be pressed "pretty much down to the floor" before it began to stop the car.

Experts also found the steering and rear axle to be defective.

Judge Michael Heath told him: "The simple fact is your Land Rover should not have been on the road.

"It was, to coin a phrase, an accident waiting to happen. The vehicle was in an appalling condition and its many and various defects were plain.


This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of an individuals liability when supplying OEM components to a third party.


Jim King

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by Littlechicken » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:56 am

Don't start me on the law of Tort :lol:

It is still appropriate as a valid claim can be made against his insurers even though he modified the brakes. The vehicle was fitted with larger brakes on one side of the vehicle to the other to make the vehicle perform better off road.
I am sure no one on this forum would have a vehicle in this condition, the point is still the same.

Just to lighten things up, a chap purchased a Winnebago with cruise control
Went on the motorway at 70MPH set his cruise control and left the steering to make a cup of tea!

Obviously the vehicle went out of control and crashed.

The owner successfully sued Winnebago as the hand book did not say he could leave the seat!

It is surprising what some indviduals will try and claim for :roll:
Last edited by Littlechicken on Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by TaggersSE6A » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:00 am

If I (as an individual) buy a willwood brake caliper and a set of Goodrich stainless hoses and sell them to you as a kit - I have NO liability for those parts - period.

Wow, heated thread.

I confess I haven't been back and looked at the original thread (I haven't had my breakfast, and it looks like it might be a bit much on an empty stomach) BUT.

If there was an accident, the Consumer Protection Act is relevant, but the Sale of Goods and Services Act is the first point of call.

If you assemble a "kit" of parts to sell, that kit must be "fit for purpose". The purpose in this case being stopping a road car (unless you have expressly said otherwise, and remember you can't contract out of personal injury liability).

The kit fails. Horrible injury ensues. We may now argue about the nature of the defect that caused it, but that's all hypothetical. If the problem was with the contents of the kit, then it was very likely not "fit for purpose", after all, it didn't work. That's enough to be persuasive of negligence, and, as it's YOU who has the contract with the individual, you are stuck with it.

You might then want to sue the supplier and so on, but the injured party has their claim against (the driver, if a third party, and then) YOU.

You have privity of contract with the purchaser. The purchaser does not have privity of contract with the supplier.

If in doubt, insure.

Chris



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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by Roger Pennington » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:07 am

scimjim wrote:
Roger Pennington wrote: However, if I buy a Willwood calliper, a Goodrich hose, and a Carlton disc (listed for SS1? I doubt it!), and integrate them into a kit which I then market as a kit with the claim that it is suitable for SS1, then surely I bear at the very least a share of the design responsibility for that integrated assemblage of parts?
Roger - thanks for that - exactly my point and Geoff has made the same mistake - I have never said that you wouldn't be liable for modifying your car outside the original design (which, by adding a Carlton disc to the mix, you have done), if you re-read my original post, I was talking about OEM parts supplied by an individual and the fact that he has absolutely NO liability for those parts (providing he hasn't misled etc).
Good morning Jim, Ok, I think we agree about my first two paragraphs, but your post hasn't addressed the third point - if I buy the 3 parts mentioned *and then sell them as a kit* to a third party, then surely I (as the seller) am making claims about suitability beyond those of the original manufacturer/supplier, and therefore would have responsibility for the end results of that fitment?

cheers,

....Roger


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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by scimjim » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:33 am

Littlechicken wrote:The vehicle was fitted with larger brakes on one side of the vehicle to the other to make the vehicle perform better off road.
Hmmm - I've done a bit of off-roading and I have no idea how a bigger caliper on one side would make the vehicle perform better off road :roll:


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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by Roger Pennington » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:40 am

It might make it more likely to *be* off-road....... :shock:

....Roger


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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by geoffp67 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:51 am

Fortunately the brake upgrade is a demonstably well-known modification that has been going on a variety of vehicles for some time.
I wouldn't dare innovate a new safety mod on a car without full liability cover, which would be prohibitavely expensive.
If someone is in jail he must have been criminally irresponsible, a different matter altogether (I hope).
The hot-rodders seem to be able to do all sorts of mods without problems, I think an MoT is a good piece of paper to keep
Anyone know a lawyer who specialises in this sort of thing ?
I'm looking forward to the next episode in this one :o)



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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by scimjim » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:55 am

Although liability was originally raised in a thread regarding brake modifications, my original posts clearly said OEM components being used in the manner originally intended by the manufacturer.

Roger, if I put a new metro brake caliper and a new goodrich brake hose in a box and sold it to you as a kit, the manufacturer of those parts retains liability.

If I sell that kit as a trader, I take on initial liability - of course, my insurance would pursue a claim through the manufacturers.

If I put a used Chevette upright, a new Carlton disc and a recon volvo caliper in a box and sell it to you as a modification for your SS1, then I am liable for the concept. If (as is the case) a dozen cars have been modified without problem, it could easily be conclusively shown that the concept is sound and subsequent testing could demonstrate a marked improvement. The seller could be held liable for poor fitment if it was shown that instructions to fit were inadequate etc. Obviously you would inform your insurance.


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Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), Sabre/MX5 auto (The Flying Broomstick),
1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by TaggersSE6A » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:59 am

You are liable as the supplier (to the customer) Jim.

You have a problem if your suppliers dissappear in a puff of smoke (as they tend to when their stuff starts killing people) or an expert witness says YOU should have known about the defect.

It's all about risk.

Anyone know a lawyer who specialises in this sort of thing ?

Might do.



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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by scimjim » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:10 pm

you might want to read my original post first Chris. That's not opinion, it's quotes.


Jim King

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by CNHSS1 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:19 pm

seems a few heckles have been raised which is a shame as we are all friendly scimitar types and everyones well intentioned, so lets all play nicely or Phil H will have to send those to the naughty step :lol: lets keep it all friendly please Peeps :D

ive read with interest the points and understand some, although some are over my head in terms of legal implications, but i have to say that ive been put off making or selling bits to others that i was happy to use myself. Unfortunately i think this case will only get worse, not better, as adults we can no longer make our own informed judgements as to what to do, everything becomes letigous. In fact the only bits im happy to make for others have been body panels as they are unlikely to be safety critical and in the case of the Active noses, most are used predominantly ontrack rather than on the road, but no doubt some smart ar5e lawyer could argue that the aftermarket nose contributed in some way to the accident caused by the car being parked and hit from the rear by a truck :roll:

personally it wouldnt stop me buying or using parts that i deem worthy (my choice as an adult and nearly grown-up :lol: ), but i wouldnt like to sell a kit or selection of parts these days as the possible implications arent worth the hassle :cry: .

It does though leave a gap open for the club traders to produce something, or even the Club possibly? as they have the necessary liability insurances. Its about time that GW or QRG produced an updated vented kit with bigger discs, modern calipers etc.
Theres enough talent and knowledge here to develop, research and test the proposed modifications so that the traders dont have to spend months and money doing the leg work. It would allow everyone to benefit, as a set of owners we would benefit from a properly sourced and hassle free purchase stream from the traders, improved braking/cooling/performance/MPG as appropriate to the product, and the traders will benefit from more business from us scim types. Win, win eh Chaps and Chapesses? :D

i cant see a way of selling parts to the scim public as an individual these days without risking your house!


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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by CNHSS1 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:24 pm

my view of lawyers is extremely poor, their opinion depends entirely on whos paying the bill, not anything else in my experience (an ex was a lawyer so i have a reasonable understanding of the business side, if not the legal) so they are less impartial than most believe. Personally an insurance ombudsman, or even citizens advice, small businness advisor etc would be more likley to give a balanced accurate view should anyone want to persue the subject further as an individual as opposed to current trader.
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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by TaggersSE6A » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:26 pm

I think I'm disagreeing (in a perfectly friendly way) with yout interpretation, Jim.

The way to innovate is to do your engineering, have it thoroughly checked and insure against future trouble. This is one reason brake mods are expensive, and quite right too.

I have to be perfectly clear though, if you were retailing safety critical equipment, uninsured on the basis that you have "no liability", you'd be a lot braver than me.



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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by scimjim » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:31 pm

Our current public liability insurance wouldn't cover us to market a vehicle modification kit.

I have considered investigating the premium for this kind of cover but the problems with storage and distribution and time constraints have always made it nugatory work.


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Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), Sabre/MX5 auto (The Flying Broomstick),
1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
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Re: Public Liability (split from vented discs discussions)

Post by Roger Pennington » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:44 pm

TaggersSE6A wrote:I think I'm disagreeing (in a perfectly friendly way) with yout interpretation, Jim.
Agreed entirely. I grew up in the '60s and was encouraged to debate the big issues of the day. I have never lost that willingness to engage in debate and raise (sometimes challenging) issues. I find it rather sad that we now seem to live in the "road rage" millenium, where if you dare to propose a different viewpoint you're liable to be seen as trying to stir things up or start world war 3. :(
This is surely an important issue, and one which is likely to become more important in the future as parts become scarcer. There is clearly considerable divergence of opinion, and it strikes me that some real *independent* facts would be welcome.

cheers,

....Roger :D


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