Garage advice possibly concrete prefab

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Garage advice possibly concrete prefab

Post by Laters » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:40 pm

Late last year we ended up with the garage and workshop/shed flooded with 3 foot of contaminated water.
The garage and shed are both wood framed buildings that have fibre reinforced concrete/asbestos sheets as the building shin/roof.

Both the shed and the garage have been deemed damaged beyond repair and need replacing sooner rather than later.
The removal of the old buildings is being sorted by a asbestos removal company to adhere to the local rules.

That leaves us with the dilemma of what to replace the garage with.
The easiest cheapest option seems to be a prefab concrete garage.
We have got a good few quotes for a brick/block garage and its too costly coming in at nearly double the cost of a Lidget prefab concrete garage.

The only worry with the concrete garage is there seem to be quite a few people who report issues with them being cold and suffering from condensation.

I have never had anything to do with a concrete garage but the demo garages we have looked at all seemed to be dry with no obvious condensation issues.

The pent type roof is out if we went with a concrete garage due to the lack of headroom and the roof being quite low.
Our old garage was always warm and dry (even though it did have a good few draughts) and I would hate to end up with a garage that was cold and damp.

I am still hoping to find runnable project later this year after the garage and everything is sorted and paid for so would like a garage that I can use.

I am hoping that I can insulate a concrete garage (on the walls and roof) that will make it a better place to be.

Any help or suggestions?

Paul


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Garage advice possibly concrete prefab

Post by chrisgallacher » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:48 pm

Single or double? And do you know what dimensions you're thinking of?


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Garage advice possibly concrete prefab

Post by scimjim » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:19 pm

I read your thread on retro-rides, all good advice there IMO.

Although I couldn’t understand your issue with a standard apex roof needing gutters both sides - they can have a slope and just drain into one corner or one side.


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Garage advice possibly concrete prefab

Post by Laters » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:42 pm

Dimensions of the current garage are 20foot long by 9 foot 9 inches wide.
Its a single garage but a better size than some. A good few years ago we managed to restore my first Scimitar in the garage. Could have done with more room but managed.
Nearest we can get to in a prefab is 9 foot 6 wide by 20 foot long.

One side of the garage is on the boundry of my property and the next door neighbours driveway (but with no fence so the garage wall is on the boundry of my property) with the back of the garage against another neighbours boundry which has a 6 foot fence.

The posters on retro rides seem to be very negative about the whole concrete garage thing especially when the majority of them mention the condensation.
I just dont have the funds to build a brick or block garage but also don't want to regret getting a concrete garage.
My wife isn't happy with the look of the metal garages we have seen and the ones for sale locally seem quite flimsy (they are quite cheap compared to the concrete).
Wood just doesn't seem like a sensible option from a longevity basis. Hence keep looking back at concrete prefab garages.
I know there are people who are happy with their concrete garages and don't have condensation or issues. As its quite a expense I want to try and get the best type I can with as much information to help me choose the best type so hopefully I don't have any condensation issues.

The issue with the apex roof garages we have been offered is guters both sides and there is no provision for drainage on the neighbours side of the garage.
The pent roof garages have a gutter just along one side or the back but they felt very small next to the apex roof with not a lot of headroom.
We have been offered a apex 90 which silves the gutter drainage issue as the roof is a 90 degree's to a standard garage which seems like it could be the perfect choice if its one of the ones that doesnt suffer from condensation.
There doesnt seem to be a type that is ok or not as there are so many conflicting views and I really only want to fund the garage build once.

I was hoping to put a wanted ad up for a GTE soon but its looking like I am going to have to put that on hold for a couple of months till the saving recover from the cost of the garage (we are getting a % of the gargage cost due to the cause of the flooding but the more it costs the more time it is till I can start searching for my car).


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Garage advice possibly concrete prefab

Post by efi_sprintgte » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:54 pm

I can’t speak of concrete garages but I will say from personal experience the metal self assembly ones suffer badly from condensation.


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Post by derekoss » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:58 pm

Use SIPs Structural insulated panels. Basically two panels of wood or metal bonded to insulation. Gives you insulation and structure in one !

Plenty around down your way. Seconds & co good place to start but lots of options on fleabay. Can use the same for a mono pitched roof with a rubber cover.

You can paint or clad the outside as you like when you like as budget allows. You'll heat the place with a 1 bar electric fire.

I've managed to pick up walkin fridges of good size. When the fridge equipment is knackered the box can be had quite cheap. A Stanley knife and an allen key to dismantle in about two hours for a garage size. Last one I got was 20x20. 6" thick walls and 8" thick roof. Built a wooden structure on top and sheeted with Onduline. Cost me about a grand all in !

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Garage advice possibly concrete prefab

Post by scimjim » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:20 pm

Laters wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:42 pm
The issue with the apex roof garages we have been offered is guters both sides and there is no provision for drainage on the neighbours side of the garage.
Join the gutters at the back and make sure you have a slope to one corner?


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Garage advice possibly concrete prefab

Post by scimjim » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:23 pm

Laters wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:42 pm
The posters on retro rides seem to be very negative about the whole concrete garage thing especially when the majority of them mention the condensation.
Sounded like good advice to me? Never seen a concrete garage that didn’t have problems with condensation - even if it’s well insulated.

I had a metal galvanised 3m x 2m garden shed and that suffered from condensation too.


Jim King

SECURE DRY STORAGE FOR YOUR SCIMITAR

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), 1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
CURE THE FAULT - NOT THE SYMPTOMS

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Garage advice possibly concrete prefab

Post by Laters » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:30 pm

scimjim wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:23 pm
Sounded like good advice to me? Never seen a concrete garage that didn’t have problems with condensation - even if it’s well insulated.

I had a metal galvanised 3m x 2m garden shed and that suffered from condensation too.
If the condensation is a certainty I wont be spending any of my money putting one up thats for sure.
I was hoping someone would be able to answer a way to stop the condensation or of a type of concrete garage that didn't have the problem.
Surely there has to be a solution? The problems are annoying as the concrete garage is a quick and easy solution.
A metal garage is out and a brick/block garage is beyond budget.
I guess for the time being the old garage is going to have to come down and a fence put up while a solution is found thats going to be as good as the old garage.

The annoying thing is the old wood framed asbestos garage didnt leak & didnt suffer from condensation.
Shame we havent found anyone who will build something similar to replace it as it sounds like it was so much better than a prefab.
Thanks for the advice.


Paul

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Post by derekoss » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:46 pm

Walk in on fleabay in Manchester. 16x 23x8 high. £500 Easy to make 20x10 or so,

Derek



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Post by drcdb15 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:21 am

There is no reason why a concrete pre-fab should be any more prone to condensation than any other material. Condensation occurs simply when there is moisture-laden air in the garage, and the outer walls and roof are cold. Simply solution is a) make sure water doesn't get in, and b) keep the walls and roof warm.

The key to keeping water out (apart from making sure the roof doesn't leak, d'oh) is to make sure the concrete base is flat and horizontal (as opposed to flat and sloping... and yes, seen that too), that the internal concrete fillet along the sides is sound and large - around 50 x 50mm, and that all the external joints are sealed. When the pros construct these garages they usually run a bead of putty-like sealant (from a roll) along the edge of a panel, then clamp the next panel onto it, hoping to squeeze the bead flat and form a seal. Well, believe that if you will - I don't. So after the garage is built and settled, I run good quality (Dow) silicone sealant into every vertical panel joint (using a mastic gun), all around any window and door frame and all along the bottom edge all round. Uses a shedload of sealant? You bet - but if you want it sealed... Finally I screw a strip of wood approx 20 x 40mm to the floor across the door opening, doused to an inch of its life in preservative, and when the preservative is dry that too is sealed to the concrete floor, and at both ends to the door frame, with sealant. So, no water can drive in through any joints, and no water can run in under the door.

For the roof I use a BWP grade ply 8 x 4 sheets of 15mm, covered in breathable felt from Toolstation, and then pvc covered steel profile sheeting for the final outer covering. I've since added a carport to the side. For the garage I used the original steel trusses, with 50 x 50 purlins (tannelised as we used to call it, pressure-treated). For the car port I had to start from scratch, so I used 40 x 40 mild steel angle for the rafters, then the purlins, then the board/breather felt/steel profile. You get some idea of the construction from the photos.

The garage is completely dry, and any winter heating is covered by some ex-office oil filled radiators from Freecycle. There's another thread on this Forum about garage heating options within the past 3 months or so. Again, the heating is dry (as opposed to burning propane etc) so no water is introduced.

I cut my teeth in garage humidity, if I can call it that, by re-building a concrete pre-fab tandem twin in the west of Scotland, where the rainfall is probaby even higher than in Lancashire :lol: but I can assure you the rainfall here in Sussex is pretty substantial too. There are plenty of wet garages in the dry sunny south-east.

Regarding guttering, I take the gutter on what to you will be the neighbour's side around the rear corner of the garage, then across the whole width to the opposite corner, and tee it into the downpipe of the 'home' side gutter. The combined flow then feeds SWMBO's water butt, and that fills to overflowing in a matter of a few hours of rain. But inside the garage the wood roof stops the major heat loss, and the sealed joints stop water getting in, so MB61 sits there bone dry all winter.

There is no easy short cut to a completely dry garage. Almost by definition a garage is a quick assembly construction, so as-built it's bound to leak. You either take on a load of time-consuming work afterwards to seal those leaks, or you get a builder to build you a brick-built house-standard like structure complete with DPC and double glazed windows - and pay the correspondingly high price. A pre-fab new should cost around £3K depending on size, a builder-made brick equivalent could be around £15K. You won't spend £12K in sealant, though :lol:
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Post by steve bryant » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:23 am

as I am not aware of the building codes etc for the UK I cannot comment on that but what I will stress is, whatever you build you will have to use and live with it for a long time so try and build what you want/need and of course fits into your budget.
my garage I am very happy with, its 8 x 8 meters 8) and has a slopping roof to the rear with a full length gutter to drain one side



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Post by halfpenny » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:09 am

What about a block perimeter wall, say 0.3m high, with a timber structure on top



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Post by ScimmyMike » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:12 am

Strictly speaking garages indeed buildings in general don't actually require gutters, you just need to demonstrate that the rainwater run off won't damage the buildings fabric, we used to work with MaDonalds as consultants when the were building loads of their drive throughs, no gutter on those at all to the pitched roofs because they had masses of oversail so the walls never got wet, my apexed roof garage hasn't any fitted, just make sure that the eaves oversail the walls by a good margin so any run off clears the walls below.


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Post by reliant-reviver » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:30 am

Went through similar a few years back, original plan was a fully insulated brick and block garage adjoining the house, but in the end I went the concrete pre-fab route and ordered a 3.2 x 6.8 "Pent Mansard" from Lidget Compton.

I never experienced a single drop of condensation in the garage, certainly no horror stories of walls and roof sheets running with water or anything. The only ingress of water was under one side after heavy rain and under the personnel door frame which needed additional sealing with mastic to sort.

The concrete base I laid was 2" wider and longer than the garage as per instruction. I assumed it would be placed centrally on the base for some structural reason, but when the two workmen came to errect the garage they asked where I wanted it, so it went hard up on one side and to the back, this did leave a larger border of concrete than was desirable though, and that in my view was what caused the water ingress under the side. The solution would be to simply chase a channel into the base beside the wall foot, but I never bothered as it was only the occasional deluge that was the problem!

The roof sheets on the modern pre fabs have a "grapho-therm" lining, which seems to do the trick. Also worth leaving the corrugated eave profile open for a bit of air circulation.

Oh yes, final point, no one ever pays list price for these garages, sales vary from 25-40%, you just have to time it right and can delay delivery for around 6 months anyway.
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Pic showing the roof sheet coating -
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Did all that work, had a lovely LARGE single garage in which to pamper my car, then almost immediately sold up and moved North. We now have an even bigger pre-fab. Roof is a bit iffy though so will be replacing in one way or another at some point. In the mean time I shall try to ignore the water ingress behind the fuse board! :shock:
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