London T-Charge

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Will Yarrow
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Post by Will Yarrow » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:46 am

This might be a bit left wing for you coffin dodgers but it puts it very well in my eyes, buses and taxis, not cars.
https://www.thecanary.co/discovery/2017 ... es-images/



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Post by Rattling » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:10 am

Will Yarrow wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:46 am
This might be a bit left wing for you coffin dodgers but it puts it very well in my eyes, buses and taxis, not cars.
https://www.thecanary.co/discovery/2017 ... es-images/
Speaking as a coffin dodger :D until diesel is eliminated nothing is going to change as the charts you quote clearly state ,but i for one do not want any government to start a scrapage plan and pay for other people's bad choices from my taxes ,they've had the cost benefit so now they will have to take the hit :D


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Post by Alan SS1 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:54 pm

Rattling wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:10 am

Speaking as a coffin dodger :D until diesel is eliminated nothing is going to change as the charts you quote clearly state ,but i for one do not want any government to start a scrapage plan and pay for other people's bad choices from my taxes ,they've had the cost benefit so now they will have to take the hit :D
seems fair enough to me, we should all revert to horse power, avoids all this NOx stuff, although I reckon horse farting might be a bit NOXious? :wink:


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Post by Loxford » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:50 am

I am now concerned about ULEZ.

"Sadiq Khan is proposing to expand this charge, the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ), across Greater London for heavy diesel vehicles, including buses, coaches and lorries, in 2020, and up to the North and South Circular roads for cars and vans in 2021.

I can find no information describing the attitude towards those that live within the proposed ULEZ zone.
Already my GTC and Sabre are hit with the T Charge but I live outside the congestion charge zone but not the proposed ULEZ zone.

I note the wording of the mayor's document.
By 2021, "These timescales would provide Londoners, motorists........sufficient time to take the necessary steps to prepare for these new standards.

"The necessary steps"?
Come on, say it, sell your old car and buy a new one.

Producing millions of new vehicles and encouraging their sales is massively energy and resource hungry.
Of course the environment is important but our government is perfectly happy to impose fracking on communities and local councils that oppose it. Fracking that damages the local environment and has the soul purpose of producing.....fossil fuels.

Come on, if they really mean it, no double standards otherwise we all see it as another stealth tax and a way of boosting the sales on the motor industry.

G



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Post by upstart8s » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:57 am

Hi Loxford,
Loxford wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:50 am
I am now concerned about ULEZ.

Producing millions of new vehicles and encouraging their sales is massively energy and resource hungry.

G
It won't be too much of a problem for the Capital since (like all our waste) we will be exporting the pollution caused by producing all these new cars to either Germany or France as no cars will be made in Britain after Brexit.

Stu



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Post by Alan SS1 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:50 pm

Loxford wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:50 am

I can find no information describing the attitude towards those that live within the proposed ULEZ zone.
Already my GTC and Sabre are hit with the T Charge but I live outside the congestion charge zone but not the proposed ULEZ zone.

I note the wording of the mayor's document.
By 2021, "These timescales would provide Londoners, motorists........sufficient time to take the necessary steps to prepare for these new standards.

"The necessary steps"?
Come on, say it, sell your old car and buy a new one.

G
well that's a sure fire way to lose the next election, why vote for somebody that just cost you £3k or £4k for new car???? :shock:


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Post by td99 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:52 pm

Loxford wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:50 am

well that's a sure fire way to lose the next election, why vote for somebody that just cost you £3k or £4k for new car???? :shock:
Where can I buy one of those new 3K or 4K cars? Don't you mean 30/40K? :?

On a serious note, do these various charges apply to foreign registered vehicles? Often wondered as I approached London, but never went inside the zone(s).


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Post by scimjim » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:33 pm

Your GTC will be (or soon become) exempt from the T charge by 2021 - I wonder if the ULEZ will carry the same exemptions?

Technically Trevor, the charges apply to overseas vehicles (as we are liable when visiting mainland Europe) but on the spot enforcement will be non-existent in UK and it remains to be seen what cross-border agreements DVLA/DVSA/etc have to recover fines post Brexit.


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Post by Loxford » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:05 pm

You're right Jim, however, I see a possible scenario :

Say in 2021 only vehicles over 40 years old were to be permitted to be driven within the ULEZ zone, the scheme likely to be rolled out throughout the country eventually. After 2021 in the ULEZ zone there would be a diminishing future for classic vehicles produced after 1981. If you were unable to use them on the road until they were 40 years old your only way of preserving them would be to store them until they became exempt.

Take my '94 Sabre. Unusable until 2034?

I am playing the devil's advocate because I can't imagine there would not be some concession put in place.



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Post by scimjim » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:51 pm

I haven’t seen anything about a ban on driving cars in the ULEZ - it’s a charge isn’t it?

Unfortunate if you wish to live in that area and are a classic car owner but not “unusable”?

i wonder if you could find Storage outside the ULEZ that was cheaper than the charge for driving your post 81 classic out of London :D

On the plus side, you have a few years to find a nice SE5 :-)


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Post by Loxford » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:36 pm

There seems such a lot of typically non joined up thinking from the government and tfl.

As usual the environment is almost given a religious status. Of course you have to pay for your emissions, it's politically incorrect to argue otherwise, blasphemy!
Yet, there's our government imposing fracking on communities and councils that have stood against it. Of course, there's big money in fracking, just as there is in collecting environmental charges from the public.
So what's it to be Westminster? Are we or the government going to take the environment seriously or not?

Likewise, although it is convenient for us with old "polluting" vehicles not to pay the congestion charge, it is slightly bizarre. On the one hand they are not banning our vehicles (which I think is right to preserve the heritage), on the other, they don't charge us anything at all.
Just the same with 'road tax'.

Now there's the new MOT rule due to come into play in March, I believe.
No MOT on a vehicle over 40 years? Again, convenient, but does it make sense? They don't need to apply the same restrictions in a test to older vehicles but they might check for rusted suspension that is about to snap or brakes, lights....?

Here's a section of the proposed legislation from tfl :
"We are not proposing any sunset period for residents living in the expanded ULEZ area. All residents living in the ULEZ, up to the North and South Circular roads (including central London), would need to comply with emissions standards or pay the daily charge from 25 October 2021".

Furthermore, I've just found this paragraph. Until now, I thought the 40 year exemption rule was for ULEZ, but this is confusing.
Is it 40 years (historic) or is it 1973 (and not a rolling year for the reasons given)?

Historic vehicles and vehicles registered prior to 1973
"All vehicles that have a 'historic' vehicle tax class or are registered prior to 1 January 1973 will be exempt from the ULEZ.
These vehicles were built before emissions standards came into force and are exempted because of their unsuitability for engine conversion or replacement".



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Post by philhoward » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:54 pm

All Historic class vehicles are over 40 years old, but not all vehicles over 40 are Historic. You apply for Historic class for a PLG vehicle rather than get it awarded automatically. There are other classifications as well which replace (or prevent conversion to) Historic class.


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Ultra Low Emission Zone

Post by Loxford » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:46 pm

merged with previous discussion

Hi,

Since the announcement of the soon to be implemented expansion of the zone to the North and South Circular, I've been trying to get clarification from TFL as their website seems to hold conflicting information.

Below is a reply I received today which does correspond to what I have read on their website.
It describes my 1980 model as just scraping through when the zone comes law.

This trend will undoubtedly be extended throughout other cities, therefore, what concerns me is the future of classic cars as a whole?

Take my 1994 Sabre. When the zone comes into force, it will have 12 years before it will be considered of "historic interest".
There will be no concessions for residents within the zone after the "sunset period", this vehicle will then attract a hefty daily charge to drive it AT ALL.
I will (after nearly 20 years of ownership) without a doubt I will have to sell it.
That begs the question, who's going to buy it?

So, will the Sabre and similar aged vehicles never achieve "historic" status unless they are garaged and laid up, in my case for a further 12 years?
Where does that leave the future of the classic car world?

Regards

G

Here's the reply from TFL.......

.......

"Thank you for your enquiry received on 11 July 2018, regarding the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ).

The ULEZ will operate 24 hours a day, 365 days a year from 8 April 2019. It will require cars, motorcycles, vans, minibuses, buses, coaches and heavy goods vehicles (HGVs) to meet exhaust emission standards (ULEZ standards), or pay a daily charge, when travelling in central London. The ULEZ standard is Euro 6/VI for diesel vehicles and Euro 4 for petrol vehicles.

Vehicles with ""historic vehicle"" tax class (the "rolling" 40 year DVLA tax class for vehicles manufactured before 1st January 1977) are exempt from the ULEZ. This means a vehicle manufactured in 1980 would be classed as a historic vehicle by the DVLA in 2020 (subject to the registered keeper applying to the DVLA for this status)).

Based on your vehicles year of manufacture (1980) it is subject to the ULEZ and does not meet the emissions standards, the use of unleaded fuel does not improve the emissions standards.
Residents who are registered for the residents' Congestion Charge discount will be granted a time-limited 'sunset period' where a 100% discount from the ULEZ will apply to their vehicles. This will give them more time to change their vehicle to meet the ULEZ standards. The discount will be available to those who live within the ULEZ and in designated areas next to the boundary where the Congestion Charge resident's discount applies. The sunset period will apply from 8 April 2019 to 24 October 2021. This discount will only apply while they live within the zone and are registered with us.

From 25 October 2021, residents must pay the full daily ULEZ charge to drive a vehicle in the zone if it does not meet the ULEZ standards. Residents using a vehicle that doesn't meet the T-Charge emissions standards will continue to pay the T-Charge, at a discounted rate of 90%, during the ULEZ resident sunset period.

If you have any further questions, please visit tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone or call us on 0343 222
2222 (textphone 0207 649 9123 if you have impaired hearing)."



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Post by peter freeman » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:57 pm

There are no printed emission figures for the 1800ti - our Sabre is always below 1.0 - how are they going to know what your emission levels are unless they measure them. Coming out of Europe may change things of course - or you could fit a cat. Another daft law.



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Post by scimjim » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:05 pm

If there’s no levels, it’s not going to pass - the “emission standards” will be Euro V or VI as per the rest of Europe. As unfortunate as it is for people that live inside the ULEZ, it’ll just be accepted a few years after implementation and your daily driver will be compliant. Those that can afford it will have a weekend toy and the elite few will continue to store their toys outside the zone.


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Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
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1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
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