New Paint Repair System or new body shell

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sciminut

New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by sciminut » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:09 pm

Hi Everyone

We all know the problems with our cars and the restrictive costs of a good paint job, prep, fill and topcoats over the summer we have been working on a simple low cost solution (although this is relative) In-house we carried out a normal restoration on SCV and although we did not blow over the front end due to time pressures the hrs and cost look like this:

264Hrs prep and repairs
Painting 1 day total, cut back and polish/ although normally we have added 3-4 coats of clear on top for that high gloss look :!: paint etc £400.00

Result after 6238 miles this year she still looks good BUT the paint has sunk back in a few places and inspite of our best efforts a few blisters here and there if we had charged a third party for this with the top coats and second blow over we would now have a car back at our workshop for another go over and making any money on the job no chance.....

So whats the solution :?:

Option 1: New body shell using new materials with Gelcoat finish in colour required although no metalics available 20 years before repaint :D cost of shell circa £3500

Option 2: Develop a new way of doing things: Result below:

1, Harsh but quick, Blast body as we have done with GOK Days work plus materials £960.00
2, This is the difficult part to cost, any old damage and repairs re-done with cut in new sections £500-1000
3, Ultra hard Sealer Coat to provide uniform surface and hardness £200.00
4, Filler system to pick up all those voids in the surface and primer coat £500-1000 ready for top coats
5, Top coats to finish £1000.00

Total on good body £3160, on usual suspect £4160

Either way you get a perfect body on any 5/5a 6's or GTC !

So next Question which way would you go :?: Is there a market for new body shells with volume these would be circa £2500.00 ie runs of 5-10 at a time

Long term we are looking to increase values with innovative solutions

Is there a market :?:

Let me know what you think

Regards

phil



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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by AJL Electronics » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:18 pm

I would probably go as far as £2500 for a total new shell, in a finished condition. However, I am not sure I would be happy with a gelcoat finish, I would be wanting it painted, likely in metallic. I think we all accept that there may be deficiencies in the reliability of the paint job though.


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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by DarrylWebb » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:09 pm

Hi Phil,

I'm think this question will be relevant to those who are in the market for concours, or at least top condition cars. I'm a DIY rebuilder so I'll be doing as much of the rebuild work as I can myself (including body-prep and painting if I can).
And given Scimitar values (at least as they are now), a replacement bodyshell will equate to times more than the value of the car. I agree that's how much a replacement bodyshell will cost, so I'm not knocking you on that. If the car was more popular, there might be a greater demand (e.g. Heritage bodyshells for MGs).

I certainly don't want to be negative about the idea. I like the innovative thinking that helps to support the marque, which in turn may make the marque more valuable, making replacement bodyshells a more attractive propostion. :-)
Compared to kitcar bodyshells, the suggested price is fair. As I'm coming from a history of kitcars, if the quality is good, I have no problem with gel-coat (see Quantum Sportscars who realised that their true skill was in GRP fabrication and took off to become Quantum Mouldings.) I know there is a huge amount of labour for the manufacturer in getting a final finish on gel-coat.


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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by scimjim » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:22 pm

It's a chicken and egg situation isn't it? Cars with poor paint bring the public perception (and therefore market price) down. Everyone knows it costs a lot (in manhours prep) to paint a Scimitar and you'll rarely recoup that outlay (which is why we keep the good ones so long I think?)

Another problem to consider is emergent work. As soon as you take the body off, the chassis will almost certainly need some work. If you have a high quality gel coat finish, you don't want a scruffy chassis, suspension, wiring, engine bay, interior, etc, etc - look at every car with good paint today and I think you'll find evidence of extensive work elsewhere?


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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by Oaksey » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:32 pm

Would there be more of a market for smaller parts like dashes, centre consoles and headlamp surrounds? I'd be interested in those parts


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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by Roger Pennington » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:39 pm

It's a great idea, though I suspect that one thing it will fall foul of is the fact that many people doing full body restorations don't cost their time in the prep work - if they did then I suspect a straight swap with one of your rebuilt/new shells would have to be a cost-effective solution. (i.e. "the respray only cost £500" - ignoring the one or two years out of their life while they rubbed-down the shell!)

Personally, I wouldn't want a gel-coat finish in a car that's really going to be used, the reason being that it's almost impossible (or always has been) to properly match gel-coat and paint, when it comes to touching-up the inevitable stone chips, parking scrapes, and scratches of everyday use. So given the relatively small extra cost, I'd probably go for the refurbed/painted one (assuming of course that the refurbing that you mention does deal with all the imperfections effectively). Alternatively of course you could look at painting the bare shell option - if it's done to a good enough standard to be usable on an unpainted basis, then it should be ready for paint with relatively little extra prep?
That would then give people a wider choice of colours too (personally I'd go for a solid colour :) )


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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by scimjim » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:44 pm

Given the ability to produce a high quality gel coat shell, original spec chassis, leather interiors and with a modern spec transmission - would there be a market for a modern GTE - or would buyers want all of the electrics and modern gizmos for that kind of money? (I'd certainly replace my modern with one :-))


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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by greeny » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:11 pm

Gap in the market with no TVR at the moment simple fun drive yes please


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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by CNHSS1 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:22 pm

whilst there are a lot of parallels between the GTE and with TVR, Marcos, Morgan etc, the 'names' that survived through to the 80s/90s usually had a sporting heritage either race or rally. I think thats why the old Sabres have a good sale value, even a pile of scrap brings the same price as a taxed and tested, tidy GTE or SS1.

a new GTE but modernised could find a market, but its afickle market sector. TVR struggled for years making 'proper' Brit sports cars, and only lucked in when they started producing silly monster engined cars that appealed to the Porsche/M3/Cossie owners, creating a brand that was good for bragging rights and desirability, more than actually being a great car. In fact, the marketing was so successfull, owners would buy them knowing they were flawed and yet loved them for it!
Now thats a trick to pull off!


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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by CNHSS1 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:36 pm

re a new bodyshell, it works well with the MG fraternity, Heritage shells are ideal. Whether traditionally tight-arsed scim owners would cough up is another discussion, but fair play to you for thinking along those lines 8) any owner doing the maths as others have already stated, 500quid blow over and 3 months work and numerous consumables to get an 'OK' finish for 2-5 years does make a decent repro bodyshell great value.

im always sceptical of kit car bodies in gel finish, as generally the moulds are little better than DIY level, but having seen the level of your work in pics, if anyone can get an OEM quality gel finish it should be you lot 8)


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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by reliant-reviver » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:01 pm

The day of the 5's and 6's is yet to come (soon I hope) and then they will attract the right buyers and thicker wallets.

Have you considered the re manufacture of SE4 components? As eluded to elsewhere on the forum, and proven via sales, these are becoming very desireable. Given the amount of work Victor in Australia is now having to put into his shell to get it right, I'm fairly sure a NEW body would have been a welcome choice.

Personally I think if the gelcoat finish is good, and wont degrade from UV exposure, then using it as the top finish on a car would be a fairly sound idea. if a decade down the line there are chips and what have you to contend with, you then have a stable surface on which to paint. I believe GRP that has been "weathered" is going to be less problematic than fresh, this is something I talked at great length about with Steve Jenkins down the last Noggin, we agreed "slow and steady" is the way to treat a Scim shell if you don't want nasties coming to the surface at a later date.


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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by sciminut » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:18 pm

Thanx Everyone :D

I did not want to get to down and dirty with the chemistry and new technologies and to side step the kit car industry for a second who use traditional GRP and gelcoats (polyester based) new expoxy's VE's and PU/VE hybrids current OEM class "A" finishes are UV stable repairable and very hard unlike old technology... Hand layup also has it problems in some cases 60% resin where RTM gives you 70% fibre 30% resin matrix

This would save you circa 40% weight on the finished product in todays modern composite world, the majority of all auto manufacturers have programs to replace most metal parts in cars and paints within the next 10 years, saving weight and increasing fuel economy....

At this point in time we are planning a parts programe to support the club in hard to find or replace parts that fall into our area of core business....

With our projects WB cars and Narrow Bodied conversion with high profile publicity, the desire for ownership will be there via a new range of potential owners who can not afford one of our cars.. But a quick look on Ebay good intentions and there off (we are looking at the Coupe at the moment as well) so we will see a marked rise in interest (and new money) in our cars spring next year. This could have two results people rush out and buy a project which turns into a nightmare and were back to where we started (unless your hard core diy don,t touch em) or everythings available to build very nice cars with values !

As Craig pointed out TVR have a massive following as a result of cars like the speed 12, a bit of racing and ensuring there cars are quicker than there peers at the time Cerbera 4.2 is a good example.... Let that be my worry in the meantime what do we need to improve rebuilds/current stock as a Club and stewards of these great cars :?:

Just fell of my soap box but you get the idea :D

Phil



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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by sciminut » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:32 pm

Old and new on MYD

After a with a bit of planning our diffusers (exhausts) would go on, standard cars, NB conversions and WB cars... Kits would include number plate housings, diffusers and fixing kits

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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by DarrylWebb » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:23 pm

The discussion is heading in several directions now :-)

Back on the subject of gel-coat, I guess there is a perception, rightly or wrongly, it is kitcar-y. Most kitcars only use lightweight panels to clothe a spaceframe. I mentioned Quantum specifically as they were producing good-quality, GRP monocoques, mixing traditional matt with core-matt, sandwich board and a little kevlar where it was appropriate. So I believe the quality can be attained, and materials have advanced I'm sure : but the perception of gel-coat may still have the kitcar stigma.

Plus, Phil, not to teach you about composites, self-coloured GRP will likely mean produce-to-order, and additional clean-up of the moulds between each shell produced (at least if changing colour). At least that's how it went for kitcar manufacturers, apart from not-very-organised operations who gave you any old shell.

As for TVR, remember they mostly struggled their entire career, apart from their time under Peter Wheeler who as if by black-magic or pure luck took the company in a direction that happened to match what the market wanted, and just at the right time.

I've only been around here for a year, and more experienced Reliant owners could tell you better, but how about repair sections for those damaged bits faced during rebuild.
Bond-in repair sections for the oft-crazed front and rear sections. Ah - I see you're already on the case for the rear :)
Personally I'm also planning some restyling front and rear, but without the bolt-on bumpers. I just hope I can carry it off. Might there be a demand for front and rear sections that mean we don't need to go looking for good bumpers too?

Sections to bond-in to repair the steel sills? Triangular cross-section composite bond-in section that could dispense with the folded steel in the first place?

I'm brain-storming here, just to maybe prompt some ideas :-)


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Re: New Paint Repair System or new body shell

Post by scimjim » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:28 pm

I think one of the first things to do is display a gel-coat finish bodyshell (NEC?) to show people the difference between a £500 Locaterfield finish and a £1m Princess Yacht :-)


Jim King

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), Sabre/MX5 auto (The Flying Broomstick),
1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
CURE THE FAULT - NOT THE SYMPTOMS

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