Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

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landschrabbler
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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by landschrabbler » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:55 pm

Some of you might be wondering... what the hack is going on with la bête?

Well, the problem is not only the car, it's the garage - too much work to do and no one to do it. Seems like their mechanic did do the work he was supposed to do a) not, or b) wrong. At least my car is only affected by the fact that now they have a huge mess to clean up - and poor Scimitar was not top one in their priority list... so I called them and asked "what's the status?" and they said "hey, we call you back" which they didn't... so I went there and complained, found out there is no alternative (at least locally)... they said "we will do as soon as possible", and two weeks later still nothing... and then I went on a loooooong holiday.

Fast forward to the day I come back to Europe - SMS from the garage "please contact us, the axle shaft spacer is broken, we need a new one" which apparently they can not do on their own...
Happily QRG has got some in stock, should arrive this week, then we see.

The thing I am worried about is: I think this spacer had been changed already, have to check as sson as I am back home in France. How is it possible it brakes?
Did I get a bad part, or did the garage screw up the rework big time so that it broke as a result of their work?

Well, you see - the saga continues...

Cheers
Jörg



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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by Oldconn » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:00 pm

Jorg, sorry to hear yet more bad news about the axle. I wish I was a bit nearer to you , I could have a look at it (done several diffs in my time, including my own Scimitar). In my opinion, if they are talking about the spacer which is in the centre of the differential, it can only break as a result of incorrect assembly. It is most probable that they have misunderstood the need to centralise the spacer by means of the shims in the hubs at each side , so that when the hubs were bolted up , the spacer was under pressure, not free to float. French mechanics who have never worked on a Salisbury axle , and have not read the notes, would not know that a small amount of end-float is necessary to avoid putting axial load on the bearings . IIRC, you did say that it was still noisy after they had replaced the bearings , and so it would be if all the shims had been put in one hub, putting a load on the central spacer which in turn puts a load on one of the bearings.
However, it is possible they are talking about the cross-pin in the differential , which is a different thing. A badly worn cross-pin can snap under load causing a lot of damage. I think you need a post-mortem examination by an independant person with some experience . Is there such a person in your local club?


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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by Oldconn » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:01 pm

Here's another thought - there is a company called Axles UK Ltd who will sell spare parts . They may have what you need , cheaper than QRG.


"When I grow up, I want to be me"
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Current: SE6A; 998 Mini.Previous: Morris Minor,Ford8, Cortinas Mk1 &2,MG Midget 1932,Morgan 3W 1934,Lagonda Rapier,Honda S800, Austin Maxi,Citroen GSA, Riley ElfMk2,Peugeot 505,Rover 420 SDI

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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by landschrabbler » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:27 am

So with another few weeks of delay...the bête has finally found its way up on the car lift of my garage. Diff cover is off, so I could see the damage for the first time myself:

[album]1754[/album]

I translated them all of the input I got into French, hopefully they will take it in account...

Wonder if the car returns before Christmas :?



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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by Oldconn » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:00 pm

Hi Jörg, it's not clear from the picture what is damaged. Is the vertical pin broken? Is there a piece missing from the central spacer? I can't see any broken teeth . It does look as though the little satellite gears are a loose fit on the cross-pin(vertical pin),but that may just be an illusion. However, these gears should be a close running fit on the cross-pin,otherwise it will make a lot of noise , and could lead to further damage. Where did they get the replacement parts from?
I can see rust in some places inside, which worries me. Why did they not clean it all off?
It's worth pointing out that the end-float which should be present on the half-shafts has nothing to do with the shims in the differential. That is adjusted by adding or subtracting shims from the hubs , and can only be measured properly when the hubs are dry,ie: no grease.


"When I grow up, I want to be me"
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Current: SE6A; 998 Mini.Previous: Morris Minor,Ford8, Cortinas Mk1 &2,MG Midget 1932,Morgan 3W 1934,Lagonda Rapier,Honda S800, Austin Maxi,Citroen GSA, Riley ElfMk2,Peugeot 505,Rover 420 SDI

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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by landschrabbler » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:13 pm

[album]1755[/album]

There a pieces missing in the axle spacer, yes. Vertical pin supposed to be okay, was replaced.

Replacement parts came from an axle specialist in the UK called AJS engineering since GW and QRG at the time had not all in stock.

Oh, as I check the order, I see the spacer was also replaced. Now I have a new one that came from QRG.

Rust: I guess they opened the diff mid November (that's when they contacted me to get the new spacer), drained the oil and then just put the cap on - most probably not tight... hence some rust?



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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by Oldconn » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:38 pm

OK, I can see the damage now. I can only guess that was caused by the axle shafts trying to turn the spacer, which suggests lack of end-float as mentioned earlier. I hope the mechanic has found the broken pieces and got them out!


"When I grow up, I want to be me"
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Current: SE6A; 998 Mini.Previous: Morris Minor,Ford8, Cortinas Mk1 &2,MG Midget 1932,Morgan 3W 1934,Lagonda Rapier,Honda S800, Austin Maxi,Citroen GSA, Riley ElfMk2,Peugeot 505,Rover 420 SDI

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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by landschrabbler » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:41 pm

Hello all,

news from the garage - but no Christmas wonder...

So they found the source for the whining - as expected the pairing of pinion and crown wheel, where they found some movement. Re-shimmed it should be okay now, though they report that while turning there is one small spot where is moves a bit heavier. Seems to be an unbalance of the crown wheel. Should I be concerned?

When they put the axle back together they found this: with the axle shafts in place, all turns free and the spacer (replaced) is floating. As soon as they start tightening the bolts at the wheel hubs, it gets more and more under tension! Guess Ian was very much on the spot with
Oldconn wrote:I can only guess that was caused by the axle shafts trying to turn the spacer, which suggests lack of end-float as mentioned earlier.
and I wonder how they missed that the first time.

So now they need to re-shim here - does anyone know the sizes available for the shims no. 40 (as per the manual). Don't know yet what they need, but want to be prepared...

So there is light at the end of the tunnel. Good news is that finally the garage seems to understand how to deal with the axle.

Will be a fight when it comes to the bill - clearly they did a lot wrong during the first rebuild...

Merry Christmas everyone!



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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by Oldconn » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:47 am

Jörg, I don't know which shims you will need, but I have a few to spare which you can have gratis. Send me a PM with your address. They are different thicknesses so the garage shoud be able to play with them until they arrive at the required clearance WITH DRY HUBS BOLTED UP. I do not have the book to hand but from memory it should be .004" to .008" . As for the tight spot when turning,that suggests to me that (a) the crown wheel is not seated properly, or(b) the crownwheel or the pinion are damaged, or(c) the pinion shaft is bent.It certainly sounds as though your garage does not understand these units. It may run OK, but it will not be silent. Having said that, mine is not completely silent, and I doubt that any of these old axles are silent, but we can get them within tolerable levels . Mine is loudest at around 40mph, but not loud enough to bother anybody, and it can hardly be heard when cruising at 70mph.
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU AND ALL THE SCIMITARISTS :D


"When I grow up, I want to be me"
-Kermit Weeks
Current: SE6A; 998 Mini.Previous: Morris Minor,Ford8, Cortinas Mk1 &2,MG Midget 1932,Morgan 3W 1934,Lagonda Rapier,Honda S800, Austin Maxi,Citroen GSA, Riley ElfMk2,Peugeot 505,Rover 420 SDI

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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by landschrabbler » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:53 pm

PM on the way.

Thank you VERY much, that would be a nice Christmas present - a I will certainly come up with some kind of "remboursement" :wink:

I accompany Chris: the Scimitar network is incredible!

Merci beaucoup les gars !



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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by landschrabbler » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:06 pm

Hello all, and a belated happy new year :drum:

I would love to tell you that the shims provided by Ian (and one more time BIG thank you!) solved the problems, but as you might have already guessed... no.

I went to see the garage one week after I delivered the shims, and I was greeted with "hello, good timing, just got the car from the lift and wanted to do a check ride". So I asked "did the shims give you enough clearance?" and the answer was "well, it's still not free from contact but better then before"...

:bh :bh :bh

So I reminded him (again...) that the spacer has to float free and that it would make no sense to do a test ride as I would not accept this situation.

Fast forward to my visit yesterday - nothing happened, so discussion with the mechanic about how to proceed. Seems all he did was putting the shims equally distributed on both sides of the axle, and that was it for him. I explained to him how he should do it one side after another, and he will try this weekend in order to find out how much more has to be shimmed.

Does anyone else have some shims left he might be willing to donate for the cure of la bête?



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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by Oldconn » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:19 pm

What happened to the original shims which must have been in there? Have they lost them? If the new spacer is the correct length (I guess it would be, from GW or QRG) then the old shims plus the new ones should be more than enough to do the job. In case your mechanic still doesn't understand, the float should be felt at the hubs, its no good trying to see it inside the differential case. Pull & push on one hub, and movement should be just discernable. Of course, that will push aginst the spacer which in turn will push the other hub. Total movement is given in the text I sent with the shims.


"When I grow up, I want to be me"
-Kermit Weeks
Current: SE6A; 998 Mini.Previous: Morris Minor,Ford8, Cortinas Mk1 &2,MG Midget 1932,Morgan 3W 1934,Lagonda Rapier,Honda S800, Austin Maxi,Citroen GSA, Riley ElfMk2,Peugeot 505,Rover 420 SDI

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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by AJL Electronics » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:48 pm

landschrabbler wrote:
Does anyone else have some shims left he might be willing to donate for the cure of la bête?
I could find you some, but don't understand why you would need them? The originals plus the new ones should give you more than enough adjustment.


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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by landschrabbler » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:41 pm

Well, the whereabouts of the original shims is a mystery only the mechanic in the garage could solve - forgot to ask him...
The new spacer came from QRG so should be the right size.

And no, the mechanic is not looking at the play in the diff - what he explained me is that he tightens the bolts at the wheel bearings and when he turns the halfshaft he can feel how the resistance gets higher.

I will call him Monday see if he finally got some measures and see how we proceed...



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Re: Ma vie avec "la bête verte"...

Post by AJL Electronics » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:56 pm

That is irrelant! The shims set the float. That is the amount of in and out movement of the hub. Maybe you should commission me to pop over and show them how to do it?


Yes, we can mend your Scimitar!
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